Resin escape, help with rebed and diagnosis

[sirius days]

So I hade the unfortunate experience of a whole house resin blow out. Still can't really figure what caused it or was it going on for a long time (after the clean out I removed about what seemed like 2 buckets of resin in the hot water heater alone, not to mention what came out of the pipes.)
so a few things in this post I hope someone can address.
Curious, I took apart the resin tank and while the baskets seemed brittle, its hard for me to believe that that much resin got past them that fast, they don't seem to have any huge holes, but then again I noticed some imprints of where the basket could have been crushed? Also I have no idea how much pressure is in there to begin with!

MAIN CONCERN: I want to be certain that there is not SOME other softner part that could have failed that I am not aware of? (like in the actual valve I have a WS1) I certainly don't want to go through all the trouble of rebidding this thing, with new distribution tube and baskets and resin only to have it happen again, because I forgot to check for XYZ.! (I will for sure use the conservative method of filling tank to a avoid resin blow out)
> do I need to clean out the clack valve? (aside fro the injector) if so how do I do that?

EXTRA: if anyone has insight on what could have initiated the cause let me know, coincidently we shut water off to the water heater (Only) to service the anode rod, and after we turned water back on that is when we go our first clog in the pipes, then every fixture was clogged! (note we did not remember to put water softener in bypass or anything like that while we did the work.. oops... (note the RO filter was not turned off either and that is on the cold water line.
Is there some other pressure issue I should be looking at ?

 

[Bannerman]

Classic result of the system being equipped with a low quality bottom basket. The bottom basket is the only component that prevents resin from escaping into your plumbing system, so best not to cheap-out there.

Recommend replacing with either a Clack or Fleck basket and riser which will be high quality and less prone to failure. Many water systems obtained from online sources, are equipped with cheap, low quality baskets so as to lower the expense for that online dealer.

As you didn't mention bedding gravel, I expect none was installed. Gravel is also commonly excluded in online systems as the additional gravel weight increases the dealer's shipping expense. After excluding gravel, some dealers will then equip the system with a shorter than standard height tank, which then further lowers the dealer's expense for both the tank and shipping.

Bedding gravel provides several benefits including burying the bottom screen as the gravel is to fill the tank's bottom dome. The larger, heavier gravel then will keep the smaller, lighter resin granules elevated above and away from the bottom basket. This will permit more resin to be utilized to remove hardness, and also reduces the potential for resin loss in the event the bottom basket becomes compromised.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[sirius days]

thank you for that info.. I would be very surprised at this MFG skimping on parts. the part I have is called Turbulator made by Nelson corp. seems like a patented design no one else uses: https://www.nelsencorp.com/itemdetail/TURB-1044-1050 Nelson Corp also..
"Turbulators help water softeners last longer by distributing the brine solution to the upper portion of the media bed for a much better cleaning compared to a standard distributor tube. They help softeners remove more hardness, iron and manganese. They increase your water softener’s efficiency by up to 80%. Turbulators do not require a gravel under bed.
Turbulator Assembly For 44" Water Softener Tanks quantity"
I will look into bedding with some gravel too, can you please advise on that, how much I need for a 1cu ft tank. and then I assume I would still put in the whole amount of 1cu ft resin... (although it says with the use of the turbulator no gravel is needed)

 

[Bannerman]

True that gravel under bedding cannot be utilized with softener equipped with a turbulator. A turbulator functions similar to a pump, causing the most depleted resin located at the bottom of the tank to be circulated (reclassified) to the top of the tank while backwash is occuring. While reclassification will also occur during backwash without a turbulator, reclassification will occur more slowly, so the Backwash setting will typically be programmed for at least 10-minutes duration.

A turbulator is only occasionally utilized for well water which contains some amount of ferrous iron. Since removal of ferrous iron with a softener is not an efficient method (1 ppm iron will consume the same hardness capacity as removing 85 ppm (5 grains per gallon) actual hardness, generally recommended to utilize an alternate iron reduction method prior to a softener, especially when the iron amount exceeds ~ 1 ppm. The 1 ppm iron recommendation limit is intended to only eliminate the additional expense for a dedicated iron reduction system because the iron quantity is relatively low, but even with such a low quality of iron, a dedicated reduction system would be best and more efficient in terms of salt use and the elimination of the additional ongoing expense and maintenance needed to remove iron accumulation from the resin.

Even while equipped with a turbulator, soft water flow through the resin to the home plumbing continues to be downward through the resin, so the softened water will exit the tank through the bottom screen, up through the riser tube, and directly out to your home's plumbing system.

Your photo shows at least one slot on your current bottom basket screen where the screen appears to be deformed, resulting in a wider gap, which is likely wide enough to permit resin to pass through. If your system is equipped with 'Fine Mesh' resin which is occasionally utilized (but not generally recommended) for reduction of ferrous iron from well water, any distortion of the bottom screen will be more prone to permit a greater amount of the even smaller resin granules to pass through. Fine Mesh is not generally recommended as it will compact more tightly, thereby resulting in greater flow restriction through the resin bed. Many users complain of low pressure during water use when Fine Mesh is utilized.

You asked about pressure within the tank. The pressure will be equal to the incoming pressure provided by your well pump or municipal water supplier, and the flow rate while supplying soft water to fixtures, will equal the flow rate flowing to fixtures.

You also mentioned replacement of your water heater anode. As the water heater was likely drained somewhat, if you quickly reopened the supply valve to the WH after repairs were concluded, the flow rate through the softener will have been extremely rapid and sudden, which would place additional stress on the bottom screen, compared to what is usually experienced under normal soft water use.

Whenever any work is performed to your plumbing system, recommend opening the furthest way faucet, then only crack the supply valve open only slightly, until all air is eliminated and water flow is continuous, then close the faucet and open the supply valve fully.

 

[sirius days]

great all great info, yes we probably messed up with the work on the heater and didn't think to shut off to softner! I will check the resin I ordered for the rebed. I ordered the standard ardex 800 but I dont need iron removal and we are on city water with added chlorine (probably another culprit )

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

great all great info, yes we probably messed up with the work on the heater and didn't think to shut off to softner! I will check the resin I ordered for the rebed. I ordered the standard ardex 800 but I dont need iron removal and we are on city water with added chlorine (probably another culprit )

You need to just go get a new clack unit with the #10 resin in the unit....
dont fool with trying to resurrect that older unit.........

Odds are that their is a good chance the resin just blew up and expanded due to the chlorine in the water
we get this happening all the time with the cheap ass #8 resin...........

In the Clack units I install , I put a small screen installed into the out going side of the bypass
that stops the resin from ever getting into the system...... the resin will just stop at this point and
someone will have to put the unit on bypass to get water flowing through the system again but it saves everyone
a ton of misery and work


The part looks like a sowing thimble tha tonly allows
the water to pass through.... You should get one of those for your bypass.. for 5 bucks..
.

 

[sirius days]

thanks for that info seems like a no brainer that there should be a screen in that outport! so simple yet so effective. (where can I buy one?) I tried googling it can cant seem to find a match anywhere.
can you elaborate on the clack unit? I have a clack ws1 valve head, I dont think anything could be wrong with it, I did a tear down and cleaned out (really nothing there to clean up)

what resin do you recommend, I purchased Alex C-800 (I did not get the C800x10 because I don't have iron in my water)? and why would not my unit be good as new if I purchase a new turbulator and resin? whats wrong with the fiberglass tank? seems indestructible..

also I looked up the info on what my custom builder installed for me, and these are the specs: while I dont know what exact resin was used it appears it was a premium grade resin.
.......
Regenerates When Needed, Based On Water Usage 1" High Flow Design
Turbo Resin Scrubber - For Premium Performance Double "Polishing" Backwash
Corrosion Resistant Components
No Fasteners,Screws, or Bolts
Single Motor Driven Piston Operated
Circuit Board is Enclosed and Separate From Salt Tank
Premium Grade Ion Exchange Resin
Seamless Fiberglass Wrapped Resin Tank with smooth inner tank that is spun wrapped in fiberglass for exceptional strength. Tanks are made of FDA approved materials and certified by NSF

Soft Water Brine Tank Refill
15” x 17“ x 36” Brine System
Safety Shut-Off
Dry Salt-Grid System
......

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

thanks for that info seems like a no brainer that there should be a screen in that outport! so simple yet so effective. (where can I buy one?) I tried googling it can cant seem to find a match anywhere.
can you elaborate on the clack unit? I have a clack ws1 valve head, I dont think anything could be wrong with it, I did a tear down and cleaned out (really nothing there to clean up)

what resin do you recommend, I purchased Alex C-800 (I did not get the C800x10 because I don't have iron in my water)? and why would not my unit be good as new if I purchase a new turbulator and resin? whats wrong with the fiberglass tank? seems indestructible..

also I looked up the info on what my custom builder installed for me, and these are the specs: while I dont know what exact resin was used it appears it was a premium grade resin.
.......
Regenerates When Needed, Based On Water Usage 1" High Flow Design
Turbo Resin Scrubber - For Premium Performance Double "Polishing" Backwash
Corrosion Resistant Components
No Fasteners,Screws, or Bolts
Single Motor Driven Piston Operated
Circuit Board is Enclosed and Separate From Salt Tank
Premium Grade Ion Exchange Resin
Seamless Fiberglass Wrapped Resin Tank with smooth inner tank that is spun wrapped in fiberglass for exceptional strength. Tanks are made of FDA approved materials and certified by NSF

Soft Water Brine Tank Refill
15” x 17“ x 36” Brine System
Safety Shut-Off
Dry Salt-Grid System
......

These screens are new to me too....I get them from Woods Brothers out of Nebraska and Indianapolis....
I Cant seem to find them anywhere else but they are such a simple and easy way to keep the resin from
screwing up the whole house..... if the resin rises, then it just stops the whole process dead in its tracks and
you have to bypass the unit if you want water to your home



So How old is your Clack WS1 system??? I have seen them go bad after only 5 years depending on the amount of chlorine
that is in your city water....

I have been installing 2 cubic foot back washing carbon systems before the water softeners lately
to take out all the chlormines and chlorine in the water to extend the life of the resin beds..... and installing
the Clack 48,000 ws1 units with the chlorine resistant #10 Resin..... all at the same time which seems to work great....

it really depends on the high levels of chlorine and chlormines in your general area as to how long
your water softener will last you.... the shitty #8 resin will peter out pretty quickly

 

[Bannerman]

I would not recommend replacing the turbulator, but instead, install a standard Fleck or Clack high quality bottom basket and the appropriate diameter standard riser tube.

Without a turbulator, then 15 lbs of 1/8 X 1/16 bedding gravel may be utilized for a 10" diameter softener tank.

While 10" X 54" is appropriate for 1.5 ft3 resin and bedding gravel, your current tank size is 10" X 44" which will be suitable for gravel and only 1.25 ft3 resin. Softener resin is typically sold in 0.5 and 1.0 ft3 bags, so 1.5 ft3 will usually need to be purchased for a 1.25 ft3 system, but you may find a local water treatment professional, who maybe willing to sell you 1.25 ft3.

Hardness removal is not an immediate process, but requires the water to have sufficient contact time with the resin to permit ion exchange (hardness reduction) to occur. For 1 ft3 resin, a 9" X 48" tank is normally utilized, which will result in a column of resin approx. 32" tall between the top of the resin, down to the bottom basket.

While I understand the reason for placing 1ft3 resin in a 10" tank was to provide additional 'freeboard' space above the resin, to prevent loss of resin due to the use of the turbulator, the significantly shorter resulting height of the resin column, will have substantially reduced the resin's contact time, which will have increased the amount of hardness leakage through the softener.

For a 10" diameter tank, 1.5 ft3 resin will result in the usual recommended column height and contact time. 1.25ft3 resin in a 10" tank will provide an improvement over 1ft3, but will remain less effective than a 10" tank containing 1.5ft3.

Softener resin with 10% cross-linking, will better tolerate constant chlorine exposure compared to standard 8% cross-linked resin. As MP Mark recommended, a backwashing carbon filtration system prior the the softener, will remove chlorine, thereby significantly extending the lifespan of the resin, regardless of whether 8% or 10% cross-linked.

While 1.5 ft3 GAC (granular activated carbon) will rapidly remove plain chlorine, if your municipal water supplier has adopted Chloramine (chlorine + ammonia) for water disinfection as many municipalities have been doing, then a backwashing filtration system containing 2ft3 or more of Catalytic Carbon is recommended since Chloramine is more difficult to remove, and is more destructive to softener resin and a softener's soft internal components such as seals and O-rings. Chloramine reduction/removal will benefit from CC's enhanced catalytic action, plus the additional contact time resulting from the larger quantity of carbon media. The appropriate tank size is 12" X 52" for 2.0ft3 media + 20 lbs gravel. Because contact time will be further enhanced by a larger quantity of carbon media, a system containing more than those minimum recommended amounts will be beneficial whenever possible.

Either type of carbon will usually also improve the water's taste, odor, color and clarity, while also reducing/removing disinfection byproducts (DBPs) such as Trihalomethanes (THMs) and Haloacetic Acids (HAAs) which can pose health risks such as increased cancer risk and developmental issues.

 

[sirius days]

oh my. what great info and explanations. really helps to understand the big picture of what's going on.

so my clack ws1 valve is 15years old. but seems to be a solid unit. what could go bad on it? all replacement parts are simple. i replaced the circuit board 3 years ago.
not sure what's so special about getting a new tank. isn't it just a fiberglass wrapped tank with a tube and baskets in it? mine seems perfectly fine (sans tube)

question about the science of longer contact with resin for more softening... if i test my water coming out and it has softened to an acceptable level the. why would i care how much contact it has?
are u saying that by the time it gets through ex. 800 of 1500 gallons, it has reduced softening power?
please explain so i can bank that info too.

 

[Reach4]

"Turbulators help water softeners last longer by distributing the brine solution to the upper portion of the media bed for a much better cleaning compared to a standard distributor tube. They help softeners remove more hardness, iron and manganese. They increase your water softener’s efficiency by up to 80%.

I call BS on the content of that quote. Turbulators do affect the backwash, but not brine solution distribution.

I suspect your failed Turbulator is not the original Autotrol brand, but is some looks-like knockoff. I don't know that, however.

One thing to check is that the softened water comes out of the pipe on the left, when viewed from in front of the display. Sometimes things get piped backwards.

A cartridge filter on the output of the softener would have caught these pieces. A 5 micron filter can also catch smaller stuff that comes in from your city water or well water.

1. On the beads that you found in your aerators, are they nice round beads, or are they broken, as occurs with chlorine+time damage? You would probably need magnification to see that.

If they are broken, that could have contributed a lot to letting pieces slip thru the slots.

 

[sirius days]

Hi again so I called around for this screen. I can't talk to WoodsBros directly since they are wholesale only. they directed me to reverse osmosis superstore.com to order, the sales rep told me it was called "70001-bypass screen for Clack Bypass" of course when I search this I come up with NOTHING.. does this jive with the part you order? can you give me more information on the part you have? I hate to order wrong one. it costs $6 but they want to charge $15shipping!

You need to just go get a new clack unit with the #10 resin in the unit....
dont fool with trying to resurrect that older unit.........

Odds are that their is a good chance the resin just blew up and expanded due to the chlorine in the water
we get this happening all the time with the cheap ass #8 resin...........

In the Clack units I install , I put a small screen installed into the out going side of the bypass
that stops the resin from ever getting into the system...... the resin will just stop at this point and
someone will have to put the unit on bypass to get water flowing through the system again but it saves everyone
a ton of misery and work


The part looks like a sowing thimble tha tonly allows
the water to pass through.... You should get one of those for your bypass.. for 5 bucks..
.

 

[Bannerman]

The inclusion of a higher quality bottom screen, along with the addition of bedding gravel, will usually eliminate any further resin loss risk.

I understand being cautious following the initial incident, so as a belt and suspenders approach, suggest as Reach4 recommended, simply install an cartridge filter housing with 3/4" or larger connections, into the plumbing supply piping directly after the softener. Anything then exiting the softener's outlet port such as resin, will be collected within the filter before it enters the home's plumbing.

While you maybe partial to a clear filter sump housing to easily monitor anything collected in the filter, suggest not doing so.

Clear housings are usually molded from more brittle materials compared to opaque housings, so clear housings tend to incur a proportionally greater number of failures due to cracking and breakage compared to opaque sump housings.

 

[sirius days]

These screens are new to me too....I get them from Woods Brothers out of Nebraska and Indianapolis....
I Cant seem to find them anywhere else but they are such a simple and easy way to keep the resin from
screwing up the whole house..... if the resin rises, then it just stops the whole process dead in its tracks and
you have to bypass the unit if you want water to your home



So How old is your Clack WS1 system??? I have seen them go bad after only 5 years depending on the amount of chlorine
that is in your city water....

I have been installing 2 cubic foot back washing carbon systems before the water softeners lately
to take out all the chlormines and chlorine in the water to extend the life of the resin beds..... and installing
the Clack 48,000 ws1 units with the chlorine resistant #10 Resin..... all at the same time which seems to work great....

it really depends on the high levels of chlorine and chlormines in your general area as to how long
your water softener will last you.... the shitty #8 resin will peter out pretty quickly

Hi mark
can you please tell me more about the small screens? WoodsBros has them Im just not sure where it fits into.
these are the dimensions I got from sales: 15/8" long, wider end is 1" and the narrow end is 9/16", this seems too small to go in to the outlet pipe (the pipe diameter looks more like 1.5-2") sales called it, "70001-bypass screen for Clack Bypass × 1"
I cant find any info on it anywhere
EDIT: upon further research I noticed I DONT have the black plastic built in bypass valves, instead my plumber put bypass and individual valves directly into he copper lines. so my WS1 has a large diameter pipe where it hooks up to the copper lines. not sure what can fit here..

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I got about 6 of them in stock laying around right now....
I also had the same issues trying to find them and the only
place that even knew about them is wood brothers....

The screen goes into the out put side of the black bypass that goes onto the back side of
the Clack control head... Those bypasses are a very handy-dandy thing to have on your unit. and
I suggest that you get one..

all I can say is if you have the room to install one you probably ought to do this and then
just insert the screen into the bypass...

I guess I can sell you what you might need and just mail them to you but you
would need to post a picture of your system and the connections on the back
side so I can see what connections you would need....

its a pretty simple no-brainer kind of fix
When facing the water softener the hard water comes in through the right hand side
and soft water goes out on the left side and all you do is
you simply insert the cone into the left side...... very simple