Replacing pressure tank - fittings question

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by vic4news, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. vic4news

    vic4news New Member

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    9B4C3D74-AA59-45DB-A6D6-60AED96AEFE5.jpeg DD200648-1FA8-4919-98F9-7FF9AAABE5A8.jpeg Hi. I want to replace my failed pressure tank with a larger one and need some advice. First the ball valve is cracked and leaking. In order to remove the valve should I sweat the fitting off the copper pipe or should I cut the copper pipe and solder on a new fitting once a put on a new valve? Would using some kind of union be better to make replacement of the tank easier in the future?

    Second the old tank uses a 1” npt connection. The tank I want to replace it with has a 1 1/4 connection.
    What should I use to connect the new tank? 1 1/4 pipe and some kind of adapter?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.
    Vic
     
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a jet pump, or a submersible pump? The reason I ask is that you have your pressure switch connected remotely, which is OK, but I would usually associate with a jet pump. You have a check valve into your tank tee, and I would be considering eliminating that.

    Yes, you can adapt up from 1 inch to 1.25 inch.
     
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  4. vic4news

    vic4news New Member

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    It’s a submersible pump. Pressure switch is mounted on the wall.
    Any idea of the best way to replace the ball valve? Seems like I need to disconnect from the copper pipe first. Doesn’t look like I can unscrew any of the brass fittings without removing the connection to the copper pipe.
     
  5. Ryan Symons

    Ryan Symons Dihydrogen monoxide specialist

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    Cut the copper. Using a union is a good idea. The 1-1/4" tee has 1-1/4" male threads and 1" female threads so staying 1" is easy.
     
  6. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Cut the pipe and add a shark bite union and valve. No soldering needed, just good pipe prep
     
  7. Ryan Symons

    Ryan Symons Dihydrogen monoxide specialist

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    Sharkbite fittings are good for two things:
    1. Temporary cap during a remodel
    2. Scrap bin weight
     
  8. vic4news

    vic4news New Member

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    58666442-303B-4E6B-BCFB-0D827F8DD0AA.jpeg Thanks for the replies. I’ve decided to cut the copper pipe and install a union. Copper to copper. I’ve soldered copper fittings before and I like the permanence of a soldered joint.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  9. Onokai

    Onokai Member

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    Yes cut and add the union-sweating is best I feel forget the sharkbite-its fast but not as good.-just neck down to 1 inch out of the tank to your 1 inch
    put in the largest tank you can fit for longer pump life (less cycles on and off)
    I use supply house.com for best tanks myself
     
  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    A single union would not have helped change the valve or the tank, unless there is a lot of play in pipe to the left.
     
  11. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    If I was doing that, I would use PEX. I would cut the copper and solder a copper to a barb PEX fitting. I use Upenor PEX WITH the expansion rings.

    If you are comfortable with soldering copper, go for it.
     
  12. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Like Boyce says, pex would be much easier. But larger tanks are not the way to have less or fewer cycles anymore. You could replace all that with one of these, which would cost less, take up less space, and work better than a large tank.

    pk1a-md.jpg


     
  13. Onokai

    Onokai Member

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    Valveman-I have a 5 gallon a minute submersible in a 100 foot well-with CSV my max output is 5 gallons a minute unless I change out the pump.
    I'm intrigued by this device.What it does is provide constant pressure with less cycling right?
    You take out your old presure tank and put in this device instead ?
     
  14. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    A 1/2HP, 5 GPM pump will produce 6-7 GPM from 100' and 40/60 pressure. The CSV works with a standard pressure tank and pressure switch, it just doesn't require a very large tank. The CSV controls the constant 50 PSI as long as any water is being used, and the regular 40/60 pressure switch turns the pump on when water starts being used and off when no water is needed.

    The PK1A complete kit utilizes the standard and dependable regular pressure switch and regular pressure tank. But the CSV takes out all the cycling that is known to be the cause of most pump system problems.
     
  15. Onokai

    Onokai Member

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    So if I just brush my teeth for example and run a tiny bit of water the pump will turn on then off in a short cycle? or will the presure tank still take up that use and pump will not turn on in this small water use moment?
    also I have a 81 gallon Amtrol (large) tank in pump house which I assume is to large for this CSV unit (not sure on the true gallons per cycle)-my guess is 20.?
     
  16. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    There is no way to cause a short cycle with a CSV, even with a small tank. The 4.5 gallon size tank holds 1.2 gallons of water the same way an 80 gallon tank only holds 20 gallons of water. With the small tank, you must use this gallon of water before the pump will come on. One gallon is more than needed for an ice maker, or to wash a toothbrush. The CSV fills the tank at 1 GPM, so a tank that holds 1 gallon of water is a 1 minute mechanical timer. After flushing a toilet, the CSV will keep the pump running for another minute. If you flush again, the pump just stays running and the 1 minute mechanical timer restarts after every flush. So you could flush a hundred times in a row, and the pump would only cycle once. In the same way, after you flush you have a minute to wash your hands, then another minute to wash your toothbrush before the pump shuts off. If you brush within a minute the pump will still be running when you rinse and wash the toothbrush again. If you get into the shower within another minute, the pump is STILL running and stays running for as long as you are in the shower. If you dry off in less than a minute, the pump is STILL running if you want to flush, brush, or use water again for any reason. Basically, the CSV makes sure you are finished using water as it is refilling the little pressure tank, before it shuts off the pump. Then you have 1 gallon in the tank to use before the pump will start again.

    With the CSV and small tank, you wouldn't even be able to make the pump short cycle if you tried. You would have to close all faucets and wait for the tank to fill and the pump to shut off. Then if you turn on a 1 GPM sink faucet, the tank will supply water for 1 minute before the pump comes on. If you immediately close the faucet again, the tank will refill in a minute and the pump will shut off. By waiting for the pump to shut off and immediately opening the faucet again, and doing this over and over, you still can't make the pump run less than a minute, or be off less than a minute, so there is no way to make it short cycle.

    If you run more than 1 GPM continuously, the CSV will keep the pump running continuously (no cycling). If you run less than 1 GPM, as in 0.5 GPM continuously, the tank will drain in 2 minutes and the CSV will refill the tank in 2 minutes, which is a cycle every 4 minutes, which is not short cycling.

    Yes an 80 gallon tank holds 20 gallons of water. And no it is not too big to work with a CSV. The CSV will work with any size tank. But with the big tank you will see the shower pressure decrease from 60 to 40 for the first 6-8 minutes, where as with the small tank it will see a strong constant 50 PSI before you get the temp adjusted.

    I know it is counter intuitive, but the CSV and small tank will give you better pressure, cycle the pump less, and save a lot of money and space compared to the big tank.
     
  17. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    So I get all that except for the shower deal. What makes you scream in the shower is when the washing machine downstream calls for all hot or all cold water. Well, pick your appliance downstream, it is all the same. The issue is the pipes are not sized or plumbed correctly. If you are home alone with a 20 gallon tank and the switch is set at 35-65 psi, the temperature of the water will not change, you will just get a repetitive flow reduction. Seems like that should not cause any major complaints in the house. The CSV won't help shower comfort much when 2 toilets get flushed on the shower cold lines.
     
  18. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    If there are too many fixtures on the same 1/2" line I agree with you. But there is still a big difference in the flow through a 1/2" line when the CSV is delivering a constant 55 PSI compared to a pressure tank only system working at 35/65 over and over. Without the CSV, increased demand like flushing during a shower causes the incoming pressure to drop and the flow to decrease. Increased flow will cause the CSV to open and supply more water to keep the pressure at the constant set point. When an increase in flow is met with an increase in production from the CSV, pressure doesn't drop when a toilet is flushed and no one gets scalded.
     
  19. Onokai

    Onokai Member

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    So I assume my 80 gallon working tank would have to be replaced in well house to a smallwer tank? I already have a smart grunfus reculator pump for instant hot water and all showers have moentroel non scalding valves-instant backup power generator so power is a non issue. what tanks size is optimal-we are two users in the home-well is 160 feet away downhill slightly about 15 feet so some head pressure is lost at 60#s on the 40-60 psi cycle.
    My pump is 24 years old and still working great but I know its near the end of its life (Franklin motor and Goulds pump head) I hear the new one in all brands last about 10 years now. the CSV would extend that life some.
     
  20. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    You may have another 20 years in that pump.
     
  21. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    The CSV will work fine with an 80 gallon tank. However, you will still have to wait for the 20 gallons of water an 80 gallon tank hold to be used as the pressure drops from 60 down to 40. Then the pump will start and the CSV will begin delivering 55 PSI constant. Constant pressure would happen quicker with a small tank, but it still happens even with a large tank, you just have to wait a few minutes.
     
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