Replacing a Jacuzzi Hydrocel with...?

[mjudge]

I have successfully replaced the pressure switch on the well water system at the family cabin with help from here. Thank you!
However, the pump cycles on and off rapidly when using water (like filling a sink to do dishes), and I am suspecting that the Jacuzzi Hydrocel (which I believe acts as some kind of pressure vessel) may be bad (its only been there since the 1970s). Am I correct what it does in the system? Can I replace it with a bladder-type pressure tank to prevent the pump from cycling so often when using water from the system? A one-for-one exchange? How big a pressure tank do I need? The family cabin is five hours one way, so I'd like to make sure I take up all the parts I need and that they are the correct ones. Thanks in advance.

 

[Reach4]

I think you can. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ld-pressure-is-the-system-problematic.102125/ discusses the Hydrocel.

You will either want a much larger pressure tank (at least 32 gallons), or a smaller tank with a CSV. The pressure switch goes at the input of the pressure tank.

With a pressure tank, you would like the tank to take at least 1 minute to fill from empty. With a 32 gallon tank, that holds about 8 gallons of water, that would be OK if you are filling at the rate of 7 gpm.

 

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[mjudge]

Thank you, Reach4. I don't think I have room in the closet for a large pressure tank. How difficult would it be to add a VFD (and a smaller pressure tank, like 4.6 gallons) to this system instead of a CSV? I've attached a photo of the control box with pump information.

 

[Bannerman]

A CSV equipped with a 4.5 gallon tank would resolve your issue while also being more reliable and much less expensive that a VFD system.

Consider replacing the existing Hydrocel and pressure switch with a CSV PK1A Pside-Kick tank kit as shown here: CSV Pside-Kick tank kit

Here is a link to an interactive animation which shows how a CSV system functions: CSV Animation

 

[mjudge]

Thanks all. Looks like a PK1A would be the solution, but I don't understand my setup. It appears to me as if the current pressure gauge, pressure switch and pressure tank (hydrocel) are at a dead end of a water line. I see no output pipe from these three that would feed the rest of the cabin. The PK1A seems to be designed to have an input and and output. Ideas? Given it is far from civilization I would prefer to do this myself and not have a water system guy travel out there, but this appears to be beyond my DIY capabilities.

 

[Reach4]

The PK1A is a kit. It includes the CSV1A, pressure switch, pressure tank and some mounting stuff. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/products

To put the pressure tank in the same area as the hydrocell, you would locate the CSV itself in the path before any other water splits off for use. Everything else could be where it is now. You could procure a new small tank locally. You could reuse the existing gauge and pressure switch, or replace them locally.

Note that threads are not metric. For the CSV1A, there are 1 inch NPT inside threads and 1.25 outside threads on each big port. Unused ports need 0.5 NTP plugs. It could be worth going separate to save shipping and customs, if you can buy thing locally.

The cheaper fixed pressure plastic CSV is a 2-port device. https://cyclestopvalves.com/collect...ssure-valves/products/csv125-cycle-stop-valve That is 1.25 FNPT (female NPT) only. I see there is now a stainless steel version of that.

 

[mjudge]

Thanks, Reach4. I will see if I can locate a CSV in town as I am headed up there this coming weekend. I'm pretty sure I can find the tank and fittings locally (not sure whether the input from the well is 1/2" or 3/4" copper; will take extra pex and shark bite fittings for either eventuality). I'll put the CSV as the first thing in line, replace the hydrocel with the 4.5 gallon pressure tank, leave the existing gauge and pressure switch and should be good. I also need a pressure relief valve for the CSV and a plug for the second hole (besides inlet and outlet), correct? I appreciate the help!

 

[Bannerman]

CSVs maybe obtained directly from the manufacturer: Cycle Stop Valves Inc

The PK1A kit linked in my prior post, simplifies the install as it includes everything needed for most installations.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks, Reach4. I will see if I can locate a CSV in town as I am headed up there this coming weekend. I'm pretty sure I can find the tank and fittings locally (not sure whether the input from the well is 1/2" or 3/4" copper; will take extra pex and shark bite fittings for either eventuality). I'll put the CSV as the first thing in line, replace the hydrocel with the 4.5 gallon pressure tank, leave the existing gauge and pressure switch and should be good. I also need a pressure relief valve for the CSV and a plug for the second hole (besides inlet and outlet), correct? I appreciate the help!

It amazes me that those things still exist and the pumps they have been controlling are many times still working after 50-60 years. It is similar to a Cycle Stop Valve in many ways, so it proves the theory will make pumps last a long time. I believe they were made to work with pumps that didn't build much back pressure. The CSV is designed to work with all pumps, even those with a lot of back pressure. For that reason a CSV cannot be put on a dead end line. The CSV needs to go on the pipe coming from the pump and going to the house like this.

 

[Reach4]

I believe they were made to work with pumps that didn't build much back pressure. The CSV is designed to work with all pumps, even those with a lot of back pressure..

"All" is too absolute. I think you meant all centrifugal pumps. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-house-and-livestock-from-40-foot-well.56713/ posts #4...#6.

 

[Valveman]

"All" is too absolute. Maybe all centrifugal pumps. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-house-and-livestock-from-40-foot-well.56713/ posts #4...$6.

Most all well pumps are centrifugal. Of course there are limits. But there is some crazy stuff out there so you do have to check these days.

 

[mjudge]

Gentlemen: I think there was another problem buried in the rapid pump cycling and this Jacuzzi Hydrocel. I have replaced the Hydrocel with a constant pressure valve / 4.8 gal pressure tank. (The Hydrocel was on the main line, with the inlet from the pump on one end of it and the pressure switch / gauge on the other.) The system works fine (love the constant pressure) and no more rapid pump cycling, but the system loses 20 lbs of pressure (40/60 pressure switch) in 10 minutes, which causes the pump to cycle even though no faucets have been opened. I have checked for leaks and have found none. There is no check valve on the inside part of the system so thinking it must be on the pump. Would I be correct that likely it has failed (causing water to drain back toward the pump, accounting for the pressure loss)? Can I / should I put a check valve on the inside part of the system (as a backup for the failed one at the pump, which will get replaced when the pump gets replaced)? Where does the check valve go -- before the constant pressure valve, after it, at the pressure tank? Thanks for the help.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah the check valve is bad. You can add another temporarily before the "constant pressure valve". But it will cause water hammer on pump start until you fix the check at the pump. Which "constant pressure valve" did you use?

 

[mjudge]

Thanks, Valveman. Sounds like putting a check valve before the pressure valve will create more problems than its worth (water hammer). Guess the best solution is replace the check valve at the pump. Likely beyond my capability, so will need to have a well guy come up there. I had a short fuse on this fix in addition to the 5 hour trip one way; couldn't wait for shipping on CSV so had to settle what what I could find locally - Flowmatic cycle gard C153 (see pic).

 

[Valveman]

The Cycle Stop Valve patents are over 30 years old. After they expired Flomatic started making a pretty good copy. Any brand of constant pressure valve is usually better than not having one at all. What is funny is the reason those were available locally and not a real Cycle Stop Valve is because Flomatic promotes and advertises to their installers that the Flomatic will never be sold on line. Lol! If it wasn't for selling Cycle Stop Valves on line nobody would know anything about any kind of constant pressure valve. It is a disruptive product that makes pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks so pump installers and manufacturers do not want you to know about it. But after you find it on line and ask for one, they will offer a Flomatic instead of the real McCoy. I think many times this maybe because they have more problems with the Flomatic, and can then say, "See, I told you so".

After they figured out how we do our venting system they did get the 153 working fairly well. However, I would not have recommended that model in your application. They are designed to be installed IN the well. The venting system will cause a leak that will get the floor wet. A small leak in the well would not be noticeable, but it will be on the floor. At least you can see the advantages of the constant pressure valve and should have leak free service for a while. But when you notice the leak, order a CSV1A model instead, as they are made for indoor use and will not develop a leak in the vent system. The CSV1A will probably last 30-50 years like the old Hydrocell did.

 

[mjudge]

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I went to the local plumber's supply house and asked specifically for a CSV - the Flomatic C153 is what they said they had. No mention it was intended for IN the well (as the CSV isn't). Dang it anyway.... Won't be going there again. This system is the gift that keeps on giving AND is 5 hours away (and an hour from the nearest sparsely stocked hardware store). I'll keep an eye on the floor.... Going to try a check valve in line before the Flomatic; if it works, great. If not, the search begins for a well guy to get up there to fix the one in the well. Thanks for the help.

 

[mjudge]

Something worth doing is worth doing right (in my case, not the first time, but eventually). I have ordered a CSV1A and will install it in place of the C153 ("weeping" inside the cabin is not a good thing, even if it won't happen immediately). I have a line on a well guy in the town about 45 minutes from the cabin so will ask him to come up to repair/replace the check valve on the submersible pump rather than put one in line inside the cabin. This should solve all the water system problems. Many thanks for the advice here! I had no idea where to start so I greatly appreciate the help.

 

[Reach4]

I think a leaky check valve at the pump has a similar symptom to a leak in the downpipe or a bad o-ring at the pitless adapter.

 

[Valveman]

Something worth doing is worth doing right (in my case, not the first time, but eventually). I have ordered a CSV1A and will install it in place of the C153 ("weeping" inside the cabin is not a good thing, even if it won't happen immediately). I have a line on a well guy in the town about 45 minutes from the cabin so will ask him to come up to repair/replace the check valve on the submersible pump rather than put one in line inside the cabin. This should solve all the water system problems. Many thanks for the advice here! I had no idea where to start so I greatly appreciate the help.

It is good that you are fixing the check valve on the pump. Adding another check valve before the constant pressure valve would cause a water hammer that would exacerbate the leaking problem with that type constant pressure valve. While you are at it switching to the CSV1A which is made for indoor use is also a good idea. Sorry for your problems.

 

[mjudge]

Reach 4, the well guy said exactly that when I described the problem; sounds like he knows what he's doing. Looking forward to getting back up there, installing the CSV (should arrive Friday pm) and having a functional water system again! Again, thanks to both of you for your assistance. I'll let you know how it works out.