Repiping with pex, have bonding question.

[Piperca]

I'm repiping my house with pex next month. It's a small job, two bathrooms and a kitchen, which all share the same plumbing chase. Access will be great, as I'm remodeling one of the bathrooms at the same time, which will give me almost full access to the chase. My Intention is to cut the existing copper close to each sink/toilet/shower, add a fitting to accept the pex, then run directly from a Viega manifold with pex to make the connection.
Last evening, our gas water heater failed, forcing me to replace it ahead of the repipe. I noticed there is a bonding wire on the cold inlet to the water heater. I was intending on running pex from the copper plumbing in my garage to the water heater. If I do that, what should I do with the bonding wire? Move it to where the copper/pex join in the garage? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Gsmith22]

trace where wire goes to determine function. if the wire in question is just a short section of wire between the copper cold water inlet pipe and copper hot water outlet pipe immediately above the water heater than that truly is just a bonding jumper connecting metal parts together. If you replace all the copper with pex, you don't have metalic pipe to bond together anymore so the wire wouldn't be needed. that being said, if you end up with small segments of copper pipe, either for a short time during the repipe transition to pex or after the repipe, the correct way to do things would be to have many different bonding jumpers between all the copper sections (or individually all leading back to elec service) that eventually bond back to ground of electrical system so none of them could be accidentally energized. Practically, I doubt anyone would do that particularly if you are talking about something like a copper stubout (made from the old copper pre repipe or a new copper stubout) at a vanity or toilet connecting to pex behind the walls. I think there would have to be an electircal wire in the same location/nearby to even consider bonding stubout like sections of copper pipe because otherwise there would be no way to actually mistakenly energize the stubouts.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Fitter30]

Breaker panel should be grounded by a ground rod. Electric water heater woild be grounded by the ground wire back to the panel. Gas water heater if you wanted to ground it heater ( don't see why except for local code) Could run a ground from the wh to the furnace. Never seen it done.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

We see a lot of pex in homes with very shitty grounds to the heaters .... Personally I think it kills the heaters off much quicker...
Just two days ago I pounded a peice of 1/2 copper pipe into a basement floor through a gap in the concrete by the floor drain and then ran a ground wire up to the green ground on electric heater I just installed.. They had gone through 3 heaters since 2013 so I thought it could not hurt to do so--- I dont think I will still be around long enough to know if it works either way.....but I just doing my boy scout duty

Its pretty simple to just go to Lowes and buy some grounding clamps ($3 dollars each) and a 50 foot coil of grounding wire and clamp a ground to the gas line and the water heater and run it outside to the original ground rod for the breaker box... or throw in a new ground stake in the yard or drill a hole through the slab and put it in the floor.... it cant hurt the system

 

[Jeff H Young]

its pretty typical to have copper stubouts on everything but if it goes insidee walls even with a ft of copper I wouldnt think it would be much need to ground it but im not an electrition and havent piped a house in plastic but one thing for sure that it is covered in the code
master mark made a good effort but had it been a gas heater I dont see how it would matter

 

[Jeff H Young]

its pretty typical to have copper stubouts on everything but if it goes insidee walls even with a ft of copper I wouldnt think it would be much need to ground it but im not an electrition and havent piped a house in plastic but one thing for sure that it is covered in the code
master mark made a good effort but had it been a gas heater I dont see how it would matter

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

its pretty typical to have copper stubouts on everything but if it goes insidee walls even with a ft of copper I wouldnt think it would be much need to ground it but im not an electrition and havent piped a house in plastic but one thing for sure that it is covered in the code
master mark made a good effort but had it been a gas heater I dont see how it would matter

Normally most heaters in my area have a heavy sized ground wire going across the hot and cold copper right above the water heater that ties back into the breaker box.... I believe it is considered a secondary ground and is code here... ..... The problem is when or if your main ground ever gets loose over time or gets disconnected for whatever reason,,, then that back-up ground at the heater gets hit hard and everything tries to ground itself through the water heater to the steel gas pipe connected to the heater or to the ground under the heater itself......

I have disconnected heaters before and seen a small spark jump across the copper when it was cut ... this mini current eats the inside of the heaters alive over a short while--- time....

This is an electric heater that I grounded to the floor on Tuesday... I wont know for about a decade from now
if thiis will work or not but it seems like a good idea to do for the customer

New photo · Tuesday, Mar 24

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photos.app.goo.gl

 

[John Gayewski]

The water heater needs 18" of metalic pipe on it. Then it can be pex. Re-ground the water heater on the required metalic pipe.

 

[John Gayewski]

Normally most heaters in my area have a heavy sized ground wire going across the hot and cold copper right above the water heater that ties back into the breaker box.... I believe it is considered a secondary ground and is code here... ..... The problem is when or if your main ground ever gets loose over time or gets disconnected for whatever reason,,, then that back-up ground at the heater gets hit hard and everything tries to ground itself through the water heater to the steel gas pipe connected to the heater or to the ground under the heater itself......

I have disconnected heaters before and seen a small spark jump across the copper when it was cut ... this mini current eats the inside of the heaters alive over a short while--- time....

This is an electric heater that I grounded to the floor on Tuesday... I wont know for about a decade from now
if thiis will work or not but it seems like a good idea to do for the customer

New photo · Tuesday, Mar 24

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

If you have voltage on your ground wire the you need to call an electrician as they most have a neutral wired into the hot somewhere in the system. This is an electrical mistake that happens a lot.

 

[Piperca]

Thanks for the responses. The wire is only attached at the cold side, so I don't believe it's a jumper. I won't be able to trace the wire until I do the tear out of the bathroom. I know my neighbors have done a recent re-pipe, due to a slab leak, and they used pex, so I'll see if I can take a peek at what the plumber did at their water heater. There is still a significant amount of copper in my garage, as I rerouted the main into my garage, so I could get the cold feed into my attic. The original feed entered the slab at my front door. The water heater is located between my living room and kitchen, next to the plumbing chase, which is pretty much central within my home. I may continue with copper to the cold inlet for the water heater, then switch to pex for the remainder, that would resolve my issue with what to do with the bonding wire, I think. Opinions?

 

[John Gayewski]

Thanks for the responses. The wire is only attached at the cold side, so I don't believe it's a jumper. I won't be able to trace the wire until I do the tear out of the bathroom. I know my neighbors have done a recent re-pipe, due to a slab leak, and they used pex, so I'll see if I can take a peek at what the plumber did at their water heater. There is still a significant amount of copper in my garage, as I rerouted the main into my garage, so I could get the cold feed into my attic. The original feed entered the slab at my front door. The water heater is located between my living room and kitchen, next to the plumbing chase, which is pretty much central within my home. I may continue with copper to the cold inlet for the water heater, then switch to pex for the remainder, that would resolve my issue with what to do with the bonding wire, I think. Opinions?

You could aslo use corrugated flex connectors at the water heater.

 

[Piperca]

You could aslo use corrugated flex connectors at the water heater.

Yes, that's what I use now.

 

[Jeff H Young]

So if I was to use a braided water heater hose 18 inhes or even 24 from the water heater nipples ( not a metal pipe) connected to a male adpater on plastic pipe pex or cpvc then no bonding requirements at water heater ?

 

[Jeff H Young]

So if I was to use a braided water heater hose 18 inhes or even 24 from the water heater nipples ( not a metal pipe) connected to a male adpater on plastic pipe pex or cpvc then no bonding requirements at water heater ?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

So if I was to use a braided water heater hose 18 inhes or even 24 from the water heater nipples ( not a metal pipe) connected to a male adpater on plastic pipe pex or cpvc then no bonding requirements at water heater ?

I would still ground the heater somehow because if this is a gas heater their is probably some kind of ground
connected to the gas system..... and if its an electric heater you will certainly have current going to the heater....
If you have a water softener feeding into the heater the sodium will conduct some kind of current
through the heater which eats at the water heater metal..... something like the potato battery experiments you
did as a kid in school...

It all sounds like a load of horse shit but I see it all the time

I suggest that you just ground the damn thing

 

[Jeff H Young]

I would still ground the heater somehow because if this is a gas heater their is probably some kind of ground
connected to the gas system..... and if its an electric heater you will certainly have current going to the heater....
If you have a water softener feeding into the heater the sodium will conduct some kind of current
through the heater which eats at the water heater metal..... something like the potato battery experiments you
did as a kid in school...

It all sounds like a load of horse shit but I see it all the time

I suggest that you just ground the damn thing

good points ! i guess that means I should boind the three hot , cold and gas or not nessesarily should but a good practice

 

[bigb56]

Like some have stated, it's a bond, not a ground. It's sole purpose is to conduct fault current back to the panel so a breaker trips if a pipe should ever become energized. It should never carry current otherwise. Once you install PEX, you are not required to bond the short pieces of copper. Some localities also require the metal gas piping to be bonded and often this is done with a jumper from the water to the gas, so just make sure you're not eliminating that bond if that's what it is.

On existing construction we usually bond the water near the panel and the gas in the utility room with a jumper. On new construction we run the bonding wire inside the walls to it's destination, making it somewhat hard to trace. Since nobody uses copper anymore we only need to bond the gas on new construction.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Like some have stated, it's a bond, not a ground. It's sole purpose is to conduct fault current back to the panel so a breaker trips if a pipe should ever become energized. It should never carry current otherwise. Once you install PEX, you are not required to bond the short pieces of copper. Some localities also require the metal gas piping to be bonded and often this is done with a jumper from the water to the gas, so just make sure you're not eliminating that bond if that's what it is.

On existing construction we usually bond the water near the panel and the gas in the utility room with a jumper. On new construction we run the bonding wire inside the walls to it's destination, making it somewhat hard to trace. Since nobody uses copper anymore we only need to bond the gas on new construction.

Around here the yellow flex gas lines have become problematic in some areas due to lightening strikes and they have doubled down on grounding the gas lines . A lightening strike can melt right through the gas line or water lines and cause you all sorts of issues, and in our town we seem to have an area on the north side that has had a lot of fires and hits.....

the problem I have run into is -- over time --- the ground becomes loose, disconnected, corroded or whatever....

I have grounded the hell out of my property.... bring it on....

 

[bigb56]

Around here the yellow flex gas lines have become problematic in some areas due to lightening strikes and they have doubled down on grounding the gas lines . A lightening strike can melt right through the gas line or water lines and cause you all sorts of issues, and in our town we seem to have an area on the north side that has had a lot of fires and hits.....

the problem I have run into is -- over time --- the ground becomes loose, disconnected, corroded or whatever....

I have grounded the hell out of my property.... bring it on....

I've heard stories of lightning blowing holes in CSST and there was some controversy here over whether it should or should not be bonded, I don't recall the outcome. I've only ever bonded black iron gas pipe.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I've heard stories of lightning blowing holes in CSST and there was some controversy here over whether it should or should not be bonded, I don't recall the outcome. I've only ever bonded black iron gas pipe.

Ive never heard that Bonding csst is controversal only that its required I never heard dont bond csst?