Removing well pit

[bordercollie050]

This make year #2 of this project.

I purchased home with well pit located across from my house (across public road). The area is rather saturated and I tried and failed installing drain tile (300 ft run, 2 ft of drop from bottom of well pit to bottom of drainage ditch). The ground is so saturated that my trench filled with 6" of ground water in about 1-2 days

My idea now is to remove the well pit, move pressure tank to house, run overhead line to pressure switch (I don't know if I can dig across road without hitting phone line).

Any ideas?

I could just put a pump in the pit and bring up the ditch that is *supposed* to run all the way up the road (4ft deep ditch begins about 200 ft from well pit and runs down hill. however, the copper line running to the house wont have frost cover if ditch is dug all the all out.

what would you do?

 

[Valveman]

I would extend the casing 18" above ground. Install a pitless adapter. Next to the well I would make a little sealed vault (probably concrete) with a lid and vent. Then I would install a Pside-Kick it with pressure switch and everything in the vault. Seal the pipe coming into the vault from the pitless adapter, and seal the line going out of the vault to the house. Here are a couple of pictures of one done that way. You would just need to make a sealed vault instead of just using an open bottom valve box.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[bordercollie050]

The frost line here is about 48" But yeah, some sort of sealed vault could work - but it would have to be big enough for a person to work in......

 

[PumpMd]

I would extend the casing 18" above ground. Install a pitless adapter. Next to the well I would make a little sealed vault (probably concrete) with a lid and vent. Then I would install a Pside-Kick it with pressure switch and everything in the vault. Seal the pipe coming into the vault from the pitless adapter, and seal the line going out of the vault to the house. Here are a couple of pictures of one done that way. You would just need to make a sealed vault instead of just using an open bottom valve box.
View attachment 33828
View attachment 33829

I thought about calling that customer back up to check how water proof he made that box. If it was mine and after you extend the casing and install a pitless adapter, I would bury the tank(you can use a fiberglass tank too if you prefer) with a valve cover box and 2 5gal buckets to get to the footage of what it will be after you choose a tank size ( you will need some type of extensions to reach the air valve on your pressure tank for loss of precharge over time), put the pressure switch in the well on flexible tubing to reach frost line and it come above the well for servicing, use a hydrant next to well for easy servicing in the future. This way saves on money for constructing the expensive vault. You can put a different model CSV in the well.

 

[Craigpump]

Is that well even in operation? What's with the PVC plug in the T?

Unless I'm missing something this is very straight forward.

Extend the casing above grade & install pitless adapter along with proper vented well cap, use the existing power supply then move tank & controls to the house.

Fill the existing vault with sand.

Done deal.

 

[Valveman]

If the power is coming from the house, the tank and pressure switch can also be at the house. If the power comes from the pole to the left, the tank and switch need to be at the well.

Could also do an in well tank, switch, and CSV. In well tanks are not big enough, but would work with the switch and can add another tank at the house by itself.

 

[bordercollie050]

Is that well even in operation? What's with the PVC plug in the T?

Unless I'm missing something this is very straight forward.

Extend the casing above grade & install pitless adapter along with proper vented well cap, use the existing power supply then move tank & controls to the house.

Fill the existing vault with sand.

Done deal.

Yes the well is working and as long as the pit is not flooded produces good quality water

The house is across the street about 200 ft away (I'm not sure if I can bury the wires to the pressure switch if pressure tank is moved to the house - I would need to cross the street) both the house and well have breaker boxes.

Assuming I can bury the pressure switch line, is there a problem with the pressure switch being that distance from the well?

thanks!

 

[bordercollie050]

If the power is coming from the house, the tank and pressure switch can also be at the house. If the power comes from the pole to the left, the tank and switch need to be at the well.

Could also do an in well tank, switch, and CSV. In well tanks are not big enough, but would work with the switch and can add another tank at the house by itself.

How can you have an in well tank when the casing is only 6 inch? If I can find a pump with a built in pressure switch that would work?

 

[bordercollie050]

How can you have an in well tank when the casing is only 6 inch? If I can find a pump with a built in pressure switch that would work?

Just Googled in well tank - very interesting! I don't mind paying a few buck extra for tank and power (pump might run more) if I can keep the control box at the well head. Would a second pressure tank in the house still work? Even if not - still a great idea!
http://www.inwelltech.com/notank.html

 

[Valveman]

Just Googled in well tank - very interesting! I don't mind paying a few buck extra for tank and power (pump might run more) if I can keep the control box at the well head. Would a second pressure tank in the house still work? Even if not - still a great idea!
http://www.inwelltech.com/notank.html

Thanks! I thought it was a good idea too, which is why I got a couple of patents on the idea back in 1993. However, they do have a few issues, which is why I never built one for the market myself. I did license the idea to the guy who was making them in the past. But the company who makes them now just waits until patents expire, then step in and take the idea.

In well tanks are certainly not large enough unless they are used with a CSV. You don't need a very large tank with a CSV, and the pump won't use more power. But even with a CSV I think you need at least a 4.5 gallon size tank that holds 1 gallon of water. The inwell tank is only about 2 gallon size and only holds about 1/2 gallon of water. But it will fit in the well, even in like 4-5 inch casing, which gets the tank close to the pressure switch that can also be installed in the well. And normally you could not use two tanks in different locations, but with the CSV you can. So you can still put a 4.5 gallon size tank at the house somewhere to add to the Inwell tank volume as needed.

Those tanks are not cheap. But it maybe less expensive than a vault.

 

[bordercollie050]

Thanks! I thought it was a good idea too, which is why I got a couple of patents on the idea back in 1993. However, they do have a few issues, which is why I never built one for the market myself. I did license the idea to the guy who was making them in the past. But the company who makes them now just waits until patents expire, then step in and take the idea.

In well tanks are certainly not large enough unless they are used with a CSV. You don't need a very large tank with a CSV, and the pump won't use more power. But even with a CSV I think you need at least a 4.5 gallon size tank that holds 1 gallon of water. The inwell tank is only about 2 gallon size and only holds about 1/2 gallon of water. But it will fit in the well, even in like 4-5 inch casing, which gets the tank close to the pressure switch that can also be installed in the well. And normally you could not use two tanks in different locations, but with the CSV you can. So you can still put a 4.5 gallon size tank at the house somewhere to add to the Inwell tank volume as needed.

Those tanks are not cheap. But it maybe less expensive than a vault.

I would feel better if more than one company made these. But this may be the best option I have?

 

[PumpMd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, if that in well tank fails, the pressure switch would be to far away from the other tank at the house. The in well tank has to be pulled to get where you can put the precharge back into tank if the bladder isn't bad and why I don't like the in well tank because it should be easy access to maintenance your system in the future.

 

[bordercollie050]

Does anyone have experience with wireless pressure switches? The ones I found on Google are rather pricey $400-500 (considering everything is wireless now)

Even some sort of relay (just on/off) would work

 

[Reach4]

My idea now is to remove the well pit, move pressure tank to house, run overhead line to pressure switch (I don't know if I can dig across road without hitting phone line).

Any ideas?

I could just put a pump in the pit and bring up the ditch that is *supposed* to run all the way up the road (4ft deep ditch begins about 200 ft from well pit and runs down hill. however, the copper line running to the house wont have frost cover if ditch is dug all the all out.

To be clear, were you going to run an overhead powerline to the pump, or is the power on the other side of the road supplied separately?

Idea for if the power is separately supplied across the road:
Extend the casing for sanitary reasons, and put in a pitless. But keep the pressure tank and pressure switch in the pit. Another thing that can be done is to bury the pressure tank. PumpMD often does that. Well-X-Trol makes a premium tank meant for burial. I think a pressure tank in the pit would be OK even if the pit floods. You might prefer a non-metallic tank or one meant for burial.

There are also pressure switches that sense the pressure with a piece down below the frost line and connect to the electrical part up top where it is dry. The connection is via a non-freezing non-toxic liquid that is contained.

 

[PumpMd]

Information on the freeze proof pressure switch and where to get one.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/465646/

I added some pictures of my very own 6yr old burial system but you are 48" down where you would an extension on the air valve for future maintenance. You can see that it doesn't take a freeze proof pressure switch my way,no well house over the well for easy pump replacement in the future, and no heat source costing you money. With a pit it would be way easier to remove the pressure tank if it goes bad in the future and I see people getting by with no heat source in a pit as well.

 

[PumpMd]

There is another way but it's probably as expensive as the vault but you don't have to worry about flooding. You buy a fiberglass well house that goes over the top of your well with a concrete floor that also holds the fiberglass well house in place, it has hinges that allows you to open up your work space for future maintenance but you have to use a heat source to keep things from freezing. Doing it this way it will use a well seal instead of a pitless adapter.


This is close to what I'm talking about but they didn't concrete in place: http://howardwatersystems.com/images/WaterTreatment/Level3/Links-Pump-Cover-5_lg.jpg

 

[Valveman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, if that in well tank fails, the pressure switch would be to far away from the other tank at the house. The in well tank has to be pulled to get where you can put the precharge back into tank if the bladder isn't bad and why I don't like the in well tank because it should be easy access to maintenance your system in the future.

Actually the reason for having to access the Schrader valve through the discharge pipe of the tank is so the bladder cannot lose air and doesn't need any maintenance. The bladder in the Inwell tank, including the Schrader valve, is completely surronded by water. If the pre-charge is 35# and you always keep the system pressurized like between 40 and 60, there is always more water pressure trying to get in the bladder than there is air pressure trying to get out of the bladder. So you cannot lose any air.

These tanks can only lose there air when they are sitting on the shelf in a box, or any time before you get it installed and pressured up. It is important to check the air before installation, and keep the system turned on and pressured up.

The only way these tanks can lose air is when the bladder gets a hole in it. This is one of the drawbacks of the inwell tank. The bladder is going to tear sooner or latter. Because of the vertical installation and long skinny bladder, the bladder is filled fromo the bottom up, and drains from the top down. It looks like a snake swallowing a rat. The rippling effect on the bladder creates a tear or hole in it after a certain number of cycles. Just like any captive air tank, the design and material of the bag or diaphragm determines how many cycles the bladder can take before it fails. There is just more survace area of the bag moving in the inwell tank, so it doesn't last as long as a diaphragm tank where the travel is limited.

With a CSV you really don't need any larger than a 4.5 gallon size tank to take care of the pump and system. But when used with an inwell tank, a larger tank in the house would reduce the pressure and number of cycles on the Inwell tank, and make it last longer. So I would use a 44 or 86 gallon tank at the house along with the inwell tank in the well.

You can use one of those freeze proof in well control pressure switches attached to the pitless or pipe above the inwell tank. Put the CSV just below the inwell tank, and use as short of a nipple as possible between the tank and the pitless. The further down the tank is, the more pressure it works at and the less water it holds.

With the pitless at 5', a 3' nipple below the pitless, an 8' inwell tank, and then a CSV the bottom could be 16-18' below surface. Most people use a CSV12560-1, which is a 60 PSI Cycle Stop Valve below the tank. Because the CSV is 16'-18' below surface, you will see it working at about 52 PSI on the ground. So you can still use a 40/60 switch at the top. And when you add a larger tank at the house, you may need to reduce the pressure switch setting to something like 35/55 to keep the CSV from taking too long to fill the big tank. So the larger the extra tank and the lower you set the pressure switch, the lower the pressure on the inwell tank. When you run 35/55 on the surface, the inwell tank is working at about 43/63 because it is down in the well 16'.

Don't mean to make it sound complicated because it isn't. There are just a few more things to consider when setting up an inwell tank system, but they work fine.

Some areas are just too deep to bury tanks, or people just don't want to dig that big of a hole. So the inwell has some uses. But if you do bury a diaphragm tank like the Amtrol, the top 2/3rds of the tank is air, so you don't have to bury the whole tank that deep.

 

[bordercollie050]

To be clear, were you going to run an overhead powerline to the pump, or is the power on the other side of the road supplied separately?

.

Both the house and well pit have 220v service. The control and pressure tank are currently in the pit. There is a public road between the pit and house.

I'm thinking of having some sort of wireless setup between the house (where the pressure tank could move to) and the well head. If I understand correctly the pressure switch only sends one level of current when needed? Can I hook-up some sort of wireless relay from the pressure switch and when activated send a signal to a relay at the control box to open the circuit?

 

[PumpMd]

If you have a seep, air will mix with water and maybe the reason why everyone one those in well tanks that was installed failed? Reason I ask is because some them didn't have a bad bladder but they still lost their air. I see you talking with the guy on that well forum from the pictures you posted, his well has a Water Horse now and maybe has the tri-seal in it.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

If the only utility in the roadway is a phone line I think you are going through an awful low of effort to avoid trenching. Not hitting shit isn't that hard. With an already existing direct buried line I'd expect you'll need to trench across the road someday anyhow. If you do it now you can stick with a traditional set up and drop the extra meter charge. Put a conduit under the roadway at the same time so if anything else comes up you'll have a pathway without digging the road up again.

If you insist on avoiding the road, I'd do a 4 foot street manhole a foot below grade. That would put the bottom of the vault about 7 feet bellow grade, which should be sufficient to produce enough heat to keep the vault above freezing. Just crushed stone underneath. Water is only an issue if if floats the tank or shorts the switch. It looks like you can keep those high enough to avoid the issue. You'll just need to throw a sump pump in to be able to service it. Precast manholes aren't that expensive. They can be costly if your equipment isn't heavy enough to lift it, then you'd have to hire an excavator for a few hours.

On primary potable supplies I put a bit of effort into ensuring they are easily accessible and serviceable. In well tanks and systems in pits make it a pain in the ass to trouble shoot and get them back online quickly. If they go down I want to be able to figure out why in less than 15 minutes so I can get them up and running. On irrigation or secondary supplies I'll do pits and such to keep them hidden. If those go down I can just schedule a time to figure it out rather than fitting them in as an emergency.