Removing asbestos-covered pipes

Discussion in 'HVAC Heating & Cooling' started by holybuzz, Oct 8, 2008.

  1. D.Smith

    D.Smith New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Location:
    Georgia
    Whats the purpose of coming to a forum to ask questions when he wont listen to the answers?


    3-4g to remove the abestos from the piping
    1.6 g to remove the piping
    Knowing you and the family will sleep without inhaling abestos fibers priceless.
     
  2. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Location:
    Home
    People because of the expense of having it removed, remove it alot more than one thinks. The schools are a huge problem. So many times you think your kids are safe and in a healthy environment but they are not, either at home or at school. How many people buy a home, and have no idea it was there and removed whether 10 years ago by the homeowner or 1 week ago in order to get a sale. Bottom line there are no guarantees. The answer lies in reducing how much is charged in having it removed and then, disposed of, and then, the air-checked , etc. No one wants to hear that who provides the service, no matter who it is. No one wants to hear, that people can't pay that amount of money to have it removed and are stuck in a catch 22. You got to ask yourself, who is to blame for this? People come here and ask questions, and so many times they get jumped on, and you know yourself it isn't right. Sure, it isn't right to do it yourself and then, some plumber comes in and services the pipes. But, like I said, no one knows how often you guys have already done it, how many times our kids were exposed. I feel so sorry sometimes for people who are caught in the catch 22, they want to do the right thing but it is out of their reach. I am not saying to do it yourself is right, so don't jump on me; I am just saying, I can understand all the sides and can empathize.

    Even when I was a kid, I played with the stuff. My brother and I rolled big rolls of it all around the basement floor back and forth to each other. Let's hope it wasn't in bad shape. I used to sit with my mother while she ran her wringer and ran my hands up and down the pipes , Oh, I loved that feel of it, guess what it was?

    So you never know.

    And, let's talk about that wonderful pink pather stuff. Or the yellow, it comes in colors. Fiberglass. The wonderful world of Fiberglass. You breathe that too, and it contaminates not only the lining of your lungs, but your nose, etc. It stays with you forever. Especially, when it ages. So, if you got it, like I do, in the basement ceiling where the fibers fall down on me; I got it in the outside storage room under my bedroom, it falls down all over my stuff. So, when I go and pick something up, I move it around.

    There are so many things the list goes on and on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2008
  3. Cass

    Cass Plumber

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    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Ohio

    He did listen to the answers and will hopefully take all or some of the advice...but because someone asks a question doesn't mean they will follow the answers, their purpose may just may be to gathering info. to decide what element of risk they will be taking if they go forward with their intentions...after leaving here then they are taking their calculated risk...to what ever degree they determine is warranted for the job they are doing...humans have always done this....some make out with their decisions and some regret it later...
     
  4. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Yakima, WA
    Every so often there are questions asked that the questioner really wants reenforcement of his hopes for a simple, quick, and cheap way around a problem that has no such answers. These folks frequently reject the advice given and continue to hope that a miracle solutions will suddenly appear. You're right, we usually never hear from them again so we never know for absolute certain what they ended up doing, we just assume they bulled ahead and did what they wanted to do in the first place. Best we can do is to offer them the right answers and let them go.
     
  5. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
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    Here I got a question for you all. Having that dreaded stuff removed is very expensive, let's just say, what if a person has pipes leaking and not enough of the cash to remove that dreaded stuff, what are his options? That is a catch 22, poor fellow. Kindness never kills.

    For instance, a close relative had to put a new roof on his house, that was not a problem, but removing the old one was. It was 18 thousand to remove it. Now, he had the money to do it, but not everyone does.
     
  6. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber, Outdoor Temperature Relief Owner
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    If you spray asbestos down to prevent it from being airborne, you can't breathe it at that point.


    Wrapping the pipe and asbestos with heavy 4 mil poly and taping it off, then breaking the fittings at the turns of direction (cast fittings break easily)

    and then you chuck that stuff to the landfill.



    Years ago I made the mistake of "asking first" and now I have my name tied to a landfill forever since I contributed to the demise of the world with this ****.


    To my surprise, and it will happen any state you dump, they threw the stuff in the same spot everything else was going. The difference was I was stupid to make it known for 3 measely small bags not weighing 60 pounds. Idiot!


    But, horse hair plaster is loaded with asbestos and people don't realize that for most plasters back in the day. They don't talk about that, or the heavy layers of lead paint stuck to it either.


    I agree that it should be properly dealt with like anything, but if you really think asbestos is a problem right now...consider the following:


    For all those "Green" believers? Your thinking using these battery operated cars are 10 times more dangerous to enviornment than the alternatives to the big picture of carbon footprints.

    When those cars get in accidents, it's a hazardous waste scene if the vehicle sustains enough damage to bust the case of the battery. Children with their faces burned completely off, parents, friends and family disfigured because you wanted to save in the reality of $1400.00 less on average in fuel consumption than anyone else. But lest we not forget that your electricity supplied to your home was powered by coal so where's the savings?


    The batteries they sell at the stores? Anything from a AAA to D is now completely a JOKE compared to the longevity of batteries years ago. Why else are they cheaper in volume and purposely put at the cash registers or close to it? Marketing.

    Now, they have these newer ones that last 4 times longer, which in actuality, is the same damn battery years ago, they just want to justify a higher price and consider you the fool for the cheaper ones because you're cheap and you "think" it's a good deal.


    Take all those "cheap" batteries entering the landfills, add in these new battery operated cars and we are slowly poisoning the ground we walk on.



    I don't recall the world being in such a bad shape when leaded fuel was the norm, nothing got over 15 miles to the gallon and every car on the road weighed 3 tons or more. It's the amount of people that inhabit this world that's causing the problems, not the methods we started out with.

    By no means am I knocking technology and its advances but there are serious side effects to the dangerous poisons/contaminates that are present with everyday thinking.

    Those flourescent bulbs will be somehow the asbestos scare years from now when mercury levels start raising in homes and the government goes gee-whiz, we never thought those bulbs would be dangerous. :(
     
  7. shluffer

    shluffer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I have been trying to get myself to stay out of this, but the temptation is to great.

    For reference, my info comes from having worked for two years for the division of a large insurance company that deals with asbestos and pollution liability. During my time there I looked into the asbestos issue as best I could in the time I had.

    The stuff can kill ya in an extremely painful manner if you get sick from it but the chance of getting sick from it is way overblown. In most countries, asbestos is not considered the environmental hazard it is in the US. Most (if not all) folks who get sick from the stuff have other factors in addition to the exposure. These would include smoking and respiratory issues. My understanding is that studies have shown that without other factors present folks don't get sick.

    The reason that insurance has paid out so much money on this is that the lawyers have been able to get payouts for exposure. That is to say that folks who never got sick (and hopefully never will since they have now given up the ability to sue) have received payouts as settlement from the insurers. Over 50% of the money paid out though goes to lawyers.

    With all of that said, sickness from methulseleoma (not sure how to spell it) or asbestosis is a low frequency but extremely high severity event. If you are going to remove it yourself, make sure that you isolate the area from the rest of the house, wear proper breathing protection (I was thinking about doing it and picked up a gas mask rated for germ warfare), have a method to clean the air in the room prior to removing however you isolate it, have a method to prevent the carrying of the contaminants from the removal room (a portable shower is needed), and remove it using the proper procedures. The procedure that I was told to use was to MIST the asbestos with a mixture of water and soap, cover it with a garbage bag, remove it from the pipe, and then place it in a second garbage bag. You should double bag. When you remove it you need to be careful about remnants left behind. They need to be removed since they are likely disturbed and will become airborne.

    After you remove the stuff you have to find a legal way to dispose of it. The penalties if you dispose of it illegally are significant.

    The best solution I have heard is to wrap it. If you have a leak, you redo the plumbing and leave the wrapped asbestos in place. You need to check if this can be done according to code in your area.

    If you choose to take the risk, make sure that it is you taking the risk and not your significant other or kids. You can choose to subject yourself to a potentially horrible death, but should not do that to your kids. Also pick up an air purifier that has standards higher than HEPA. I don't remember what the standard is called. Run it in that room until it has cycled the air a couple hundred times. After all that, you should get the air tested for asbestos fibers.

    All of this may sound like overkill, especially after I started by saying that the risk is overblown. The bottom line is that this is a sickness you do not want exposure to. If you have no choice but to remove it yourself, it can be done, but is best not.
     
  8. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Location:
    Home
    Rugged you are right about the bulbs. I use the new ones for outside only, but refuse to put those inside. Just think, we got rid of the thermostats and now, put them in all our lamps?:confused: I am confused...:rolleyes:

    Home Depot at least will dispose of them for you.

    So far as those cheap dollar store batteries, do not ever use those things in smoke alarms. They are extremely unreliable.

    I had this musical clown once, and watched him spinning and singing, and smoking...

    AND, you are also correct about what you said about getting rid of the dreaded asbestos in that fashion. I have a cousin who removes it professionally and I was watching once while he did it, and to be very honest, he did it exactly the way you described. Not much difference at all. I am not saying everyone should do it theirselves, but, that is the way he did it, with the plastic etc, and, he even did it in my home. He makes mega bucks in removing it; smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish, rides a Harley, and will live to be a hundred. I hope so anyway. He is funny and I adore him.

    I wouldn't send it off to the landfill, maybe, I would just bury it if I didn't want to pay to have it taken away. It makes lettuce grow like crazy, or is it from the horse maybe, :eek:
     
  9. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Jul 30, 2008
    Occupation:
    Tech. Instructor
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I don't care about "green" or any of that other junk. What I care about is liability. It is illegal to remove and dispose of asbestos without proper permitting, inspection and disposal paperwork. Illegal. I can't do it and neither can this guy although he probably will in the middle of the night. If caught he should be prosecuted. Why should he be able to get away with something just because he can't afford to do it right? If you can't afford to do it right than don't do it at all. I'm sick and tired of all these guys justifying improper and illegal acts just because they don't have the money. Whether or not asbestos will kill you isn't a subject open to interpretation. It does, it will and it has. As usual this selfish person is more interested in his wallet than the health and safety of his own family. Again, I'll bet his wife knows nothing of his half baked plans.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2008
  10. D.Smith

    D.Smith New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Location:
    Georgia
    I will stand by my comments. He came here looking for advice and unfortunatly the advice he recieved isnt what he wanted. The advice he was looking for is that abestos abatement companies are a rip off and that anyone walking upright can remove it and throw it in the rubbish. He knew it shouldnt be done as a DIY'er because he called and got estimates. Those estimates was too much for his pocket book so he came here and checked if It was a diy'er project.

    For the record I think the gov has too much control but some cases I believe we need to follow guidelines.
     
  11. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    I walked past a hospital today and the smoke from workers nearly killed me.
     
  12. shluffer

    shluffer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Location:
    Connecticut
    explain the horse.
     
  13. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Joined:
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    SO someone finally wants the horsey story. I am a great story teller and get all these neighborhood kids begging me for another and another...

    My husband wanted this house, I did not. But, I obliged him because he was a great man. He had this great laugh and a fantastic sense of humor, which is what attracted me to him in the first place. I could had cared less if he weighed a zillion pounds, was an alien and green, had no job or no money; he was funny and that is what counted. That is what always counts to me, I love to laugh.

    Now, this particular day I was out back surveying where to put my garden. Timothy already had his 40 rototilled, his drawing made where he was going to plant his corn ( for the spring) his tomato's; he made his bean sticks, nice and tall, and... here I was stuck inside doing all the womanly chores, like cleaning.

    I felt cheated. So, there I was eye-balling his, and thought I would plant mine next to his, somewhat. I didn't want to scrunch him, so I gave him some space and room. I had my mighty hoe and was starting to clean off the ground, and then with my shovel I started to dig. Lo and behold' there was white stuff buried in the ground. At first I thought... why on earth would someone bury drywall? I was digging and digging...

    outcomes my better half, who announces, " YIKES."

    I echoed, " YIKES?" as I stood there with the white stuff on my shovel.

    " Sweetheart, put that shovel down, and go in the house and make me a cup of coffee, ok?" Always read to oblige my wonderful husband, I put my shovel down and when I came back outside he stopped me short of that area and asked me to stay where I was.

    He explained, what I already should had known since, I am not a newbie to what it was, it is just I wasn't expecting it to be there! So, we drank our delicious coffees, and laughed about it. He was alittle bit taken back I wasn't upset. But why should I be, a roll of asbestos was a toy of mine growing up, which I shared with my brother. But, my sweet husband reburied it and sent me away so not to be near it. Oh, I loved him so.

    Being the die-hard which I am, a few days later, I decided to put my garden on the other side of Tim's garden. I am out there with mask on, hat on, gloves, I was prepared for more of that stuff. I wasn't taking any chances. I am happily digging and digging, once in a while stopping to check out my seeds of 5 different kinds of basil I bought. I bought purple basil, sweet basil, licorice basil, basil basil basil. I love basil.

    I was digging deeper than usual since I wanted to reach the really good dirt and give it a good flipping over. I was elated when I found a horse shoe. I shouted to Tim, " TIM TIM, LOOK WHAT I FOUND!" I found a good luck horseshoe! He was all excited and clapping.

    I continued digging and digging and lo and behold' I found yet another lucky horseshoe which I had to share with Timothy. " TIM TIM, I FOUND ANOTHER LUCKY HORSESHOE!"

    I couldn't believe I was so lucky, when I heard, yet another clink on my shovel. WOW, I pulled out another lucky horseshoe! " TIM, TIM, LOOK ANOTHER HORSESHOE!"

    He comes over and he looks at all the shoes, and asks me, " where do you think is the unlucky horse?"

    I let the shovel drop from my hands and said, " YUK". My garden was a horse cementary...

    He fixed that hole too.

    That weekend, he called me to his garden and inside the garden was a part sectioned off just for me, no asbestos and no dead horses.

    I met my neighbor across the road who told me she lived here forever and she was as old as dirt, she informed me, this was a huge farm. My land was where the horses lived. And, died.

    End of horsey story.
     
  14. xroad

    xroad New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Since the original poster asked about geting rid of abestos, I'll put in my 2 cents on that. Legality, right and wrong, danger, health, etc. You are on your own.

    Years ago, not knowing any better, I paid a bundle for the pro's to get rid of abestos in my basement. I got all sorts of scare tactics to convince me to go with the pros. Some of the reasoing is legit, some are rediculus. Many are marketing stregies on the part of the abestos removal company. Advice from other sources often repeats the same "reasoning" without considering if it makes sense. One of the reasin I should go with the pro is that some day when time to sell the house, people will want document that it was done properly, by a pro. False! Maybe else where but not here in my area. I suppose in a seler's market, no one will ask. In a buyer's market, they'll ask if anyone with smelly feet ever walked into the house.

    The pro ... They just water down everything in sight. All ceiling and walls and floors are plastic and taped. Water soak everything. Abestos were wet and taken down dripping into bags. When done, double bagged, sprayed down the ceiling, walls, and floor again. Triple bagged again..... It was a mess, but I could have done the sae myself. BTW, the water runs into my sump pit. At the time, the sump pump was connected to the sewer line by the previous owner. The basment sink and the laundry dumps into the sump pit. Had the sump pump discharge into my back yard, does that mean all the abestos will be in my yard? Granted that 99.9% of the abestos was captured and bagged. I was not too impressed.

    Years later, I saw kits in McMaster Carr catalog for abestos removal. Basiclly a plastic tube with a sealable seam. The plastic tube have built in long armed gloves to reah in the tube to work on the stuff. You put all the equipment, tools and spray bottles inside the tube/bag and thenseal in the section of pipe with the abestos. Do your thing, put in bags, unwrap. since everything is wet nothing is airborn. I imagine you can have a big plastic sheet on the floor below so that you can catch allthe dripping as you unwrap. Wrap the whole shabang when done. I think this is still a big mess of a job. Besides, it is for a small job.

    From discovering this kit, I thought of other methods I can use, had I have to do it myself. Here is what I came up with:

    Thick gauge plastic sheet, long enough for the length of the pipe with the abestos. Wrap the pipe with minimal disturbnace. Shallac, max, water down if you feel that may help. Seal the seam along the length. Bead of caulk along the whole length if you feel more paranoid, roll the seam and staple and tape. The ends should extend beyond the abestos area, by a lot. Caulk the circumfrence of the pipe. Tie the ends of the plastic tube shut. Secure with screw type hose clamps. Now the whole section is sealed and secured. Cut the pipe, of course, at the clean area. Replace the removed and cut pipes. You are on your own on what to do with the bagged pipe. THIS is a much cleaner method. The vibration of cutting will send lots of the bad stuff all over the place. So, containment first, then removal without touching.

    Make sure you support the pipe so it won't come crashing down. Also consider the integrity of the plastic. Will moving the bagged pipe risk tearing the plastic? Wrap with a tougher plastic or fabric if need be.
     
  15. shluffer

    shluffer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Location:
    Connecticut
    that is funny. terrible but funny.

    The house I wanted had 350 linear feat of asbestos in the basement. We had a contractor come out to give us an estimate.

    He gets the house and tells my wife, I thaught it was this house. She found that strang but not alarming.

    He is walking on the second floor of the house (you had to go through the second floor to get to the basement, a story for another time) and points at one of the bathrooms and sys "it happened in there."

    My wife says, what happened in there? He replies, my best from growing up was murdered in that bathroom.

    I wanted the house anyways. She said no. In the end, the house sold to a member of the clergy. I told him about the murder, he didn't think it was an issue.

    We bought a different house.
     
  16. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
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    Home
    In tribute to Rodney Dangerfield:

    Yeah, my husband used to say he got an orange and a harmonica for Xmas, he thought that was bad, until, he learned I got a roll of Asbestos and had to share with my brother, lol. Rodney Dangerfield would had used that one, lol.

    I guess, it was only appropriate that a clergy member would had bought that house. He could had done an excorism on the demons and the asbestos.

    I know all about asbestos. I know you can find it in popcorn, siding, flooring, insulation, tape, glue, and horse hair. I bet my yard is loaded. I don't go there often.

    I have a cat who is going to be 21 on January first. His name is Bob. Sometimes, Robert. Since my house inside and out is loaded with the dreaded stuff, it is only fitting that I name my next cat, Asbestos. I would name my next kid that, but I can't, since chemo made me sterile.

    I tell my kids, just don't touch anything, don't touch the ceiling, the flooring, the walls, or the pipes, and you will be fine. Quit whining. Oh, and don't dig in the yard, anywhere, and try not to breathe too much, I taught them shallow breathing techinques.

    My kids wanted to know, why we played with Asbestos, I told them because we lost our Mercury balls. "Mercury balls?" they asked, "Mercury balls?"
    "Yeah" we were so poor, I told them, " we rolled up Granpap's mercury and it bounced like crazy."

    When I filled out a health form and they asked what I was exposed to, I found it quicker to put what I wasn't exposed to, ie healthy things.
    When my kids were in the sixth grade I was worried when I saw them hide a book from me, until, I saw they were reading, Genetic Predispositon. Whew, I thought they were reading P.O.R.N. I didn't want them polluting their minds.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
  17. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Occupation:
    Tech. Instructor
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Sometimes I don't know why we bother to have laws, rules, permits or licensing when it seems like anyone that doesn't like them blows them off and does whatever they damn well feel like anyway. Was I not clear enough?
    There are laws about on asbestos abatement. whether you like them or not. Agree with them or not. Have some hair brained scheme for self removal and disposal or not. don't like the price of removal or don't have the money for proper removal. WE HAVE LAWS PEOPLE. I guess by your reasoning I (because I have a perfect driving record for over 40 years now) should be able to drive 100mph on the highway because I think I'm a good driver. What ever happened to responsibility or like the mortgage company CEO's are we just way more concerned with our wallets.
     
  18. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    There may be laws, their are laws for everything in this world. But, sometimes, laws were made to be broken, and are broken. I saw pro's removing the stuff, and it is really really really no different than what was described in the above, or the below, lol, don't know which way this thing goes. The bottom line is in disposing of it in such a manner where no one gets hurt. I don't think anyone would advocate thowing it in the ocean, or over a hillside or even burying it in your garden (better yet your neighbors). Do you really think all of the people, most of the people, by the people, ;) don't ya love it? really pays pro's all that green to take it out? Sometimes, you got to take off the rose colored glasses. I would betcha, ( borrowing that word from Palin) 50% don't. Common sense tells me that. And, we the people here should all have manners to each other.

    I have a friend who never had a speeding ticket in driving for 40 years. She was so proud of this, until, she finally fessed up to getting a few for driving too slow. She broke the law, she really did. She thinks she is a great driver, I told her she is a big hazard. Imagine, driving behind her? Are you a slow driver, too? I only got one speeding ticket in my life, I have been driving 38 years! Wow, I didn't realize that, lol. I am getting old. Infact, that was my one and only ticket/anything. So, the insurance companies love me.

    Greed, you mention greed with the headhunters/CEO's, sure, they are greedy, they can afford to be. They make the mega bucks. Here, we are talking normal people for which the constitution was really written for, CEO's have their own. You didn't know their was 2 constitutions, I betcha.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
  19. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Occupation:
    Tech. Instructor
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Nobody said that removing it was rocket science. In fact you can get abatement procedures on line. The problem is the disposal and the fed's desire to keep numbers on this stuff. Bags need to be labeled and weighed and the removers need to be licensed to make sure that all the procedures and precautions were taken. Again, it's a liability issue. If something ever goes afowl and the lawyers get involved, not having the license and proper documentation is going to cost someone big.
     
  20. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    Actually, I would betcha, they want to keep the green in their pockets. It really isn't hard to figure out numbers on the stuff, everything and anything had asbestos in it years ago, I heard people made clothing from it, too. :D Remember those paper dresses? They weren't really paper, it was a cover-up. (incase you got too hot they didn't want you to burst into flames) I am wearing one right now, they last forever and it keeps the cost down.

    Think about this, the fibers stay in the air forever, right? Geez, when they sprayed the stuff on years ago, especially the popcorn stuff, what happened to those fibers? I betcha we got fibers floating in our air older than dirt. Antique asbesto fibers. It is probably amazing we can even see.

    I can sell you a pair of Asbestos glasses to help see thru all the old fibers, for only fifty bucks, that is a great deal. Everyone should get these.
    [​IMG]

    For those husbands out there who don't know what to buy their wives for Xmas this year, I have the perfect present.
    [​IMG] An Asbesto swimming suit! This folks is only 100 bucks, supply is limited so hurry!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
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