Remodel framing and toilet flange updates

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Polecatt

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Looking for some recommendations on how to tackle this. I need to reinforce the floor joists in this corner since they are almost non existent, while moving the toilet flange back a bit so it sits at the standard 12” off the back and 15” off the side wall.
Is there a way to do this without altering the current cast iron stack connection?

988C2C34-A79C-4CC0-9308-5FB39E2AA7EC.jpeg
 

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Tuttles Revenge

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Looks like you have an older style lead bend repair that we see a lot.

Theres 2 ways that I would recommend fixing the location of the toilet.

1- The Hard way. Remove the brass ferrule from the cast iron hub. Use a small drill bit, usually about 3/8" to drill out the lead from the hub and clean that up. Get a 4x3 (assuming the hub is 4") fernco style insert donut in both the regular and heavy duty size (if you only get one, you'll undoubtabley need the other). grease up both sides of the donut and insert new 3" pipe into the donut and hub..

2- The Dangerous way. With LOTS of ventilation to prevent yourself from ingesting toxic lead fumes, heat up the lead from the caulking ferrule but not the cast hub. It doesn't need to get incredibly hot to melt. DO NOT get any water in the molten lead or it will vaporize and explode. Once the ferrule is nice and clean, you can put a regular copper to plastic "mission" style adapter onto the ferrule.

If you choose either of those methods or using the pipe you already have, you should be able to offset the location of the flange using a 45, st45, 22, or st22 to place the center where you need. Minor adjustments can be made using the adapter up to 5°.

replace_lead_bend.jpg
 

Polecatt

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Looks like you have an older style lead bend repair that we see a lot.

Theres 2 ways that I would recommend fixing the location of the toilet.

1- The Hard way. Remove the brass ferrule from the cast iron hub. Use a small drill bit, usually about 3/8" to drill out the lead from the hub and clean that up. Get a 4x3 (assuming the hub is 4") fernco style insert donut in both the regular and heavy duty size (if you only get one, you'll undoubtabley need the other). grease up both sides of the donut and insert new 3" pipe into the donut and hub..

2- The Dangerous way. With LOTS of ventilation to prevent yourself from ingesting toxic lead fumes, heat up the lead from the caulking ferrule but not the cast hub. It doesn't need to get incredibly hot to melt. DO NOT get any water in the molten lead or it will vaporize and explode. Once the ferrule is nice and clean, you can put a regular copper to plastic "mission" style adapter onto the ferrule.

If you choose either of those methods or using the pipe you already have, you should be able to offset the location of the flange using a 45, st45, 22, or st22 to place the center where you need. Minor adjustments can be made using the adapter up to 5°.


I’m going to try option 3… using the existing pipe. Don’t want to be dealing with any lead.

I’m hoping to keep the existing fernco coupling and get there by adding in a 22 degree bend. Is that bend between the flange and the stack allowed, and will it impact performance? Including an additional picture that shows where the new flange needs to be.

5C3D3D77-A75F-426C-8548-25EB121120BA.jpeg
 

wwhitney

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At least under the US codes, the existing Fernco fitting is the wrong type. The type shown is for underground use; the above ground versions are fully shielded, e.g. Fernco Proflex. You may want to take apart that Fernco to take a picture of what is attached to the cast iron hub, and to measure the outer diameter of the stub out.

A single horizontal 22.5 degree bend in the WC fixture drain should be no problem.

Cheers, Wayne

mission_bandseal.jpg
 

Polecatt

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At least under the US codes, the existing Fernco fitting is the wrong type. The type shown is for underground use; the above ground versions are fully shielded, e.g. Fernco Proflex. You may want to take apart that Fernco to take a picture of what is attached to the cast iron hub, and to measure the outer diameter of the stub out.

A single horizontal 22.5 degree bend in the WC fixture drain should be no problem.

Cheers, Wayne

mission_bandseal.jpg

here is what I found… brass (??) stub is 4.5” across.
The pvc was extending about 2” beyond the end of the fernco.
 

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Tuttles Revenge

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They extended the 3" in, so that there wouldn't be as bad of a gap .. so the waste sorta falls into the tee. Not a terrible method, just not code compliant.

A copper to plastic Mission style bad is what I would put on the brass ferrule as it looks like its cleaned up well enough.

The yellow "glue" they used on the fittings is likely CPVC cement, which is obviously not the correct glue for ABS
 

Jeff H Young

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I don't see much challenge in framing the floor. might be a waste or over kill but adding a joist close to the toilet as possible , plus on left side you have that joist tail you could lap onto , its a pretty short length under 4 foot so any way you can get wood across just about is going to help.
 

Polecatt

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They extended the 3" in, so that there wouldn't be as bad of a gap .. so the waste sorta falls into the tee. Not a terrible method, just not code compliant.

A copper to plastic Mission style bad is what I would put on the brass ferrule as it looks like its cleaned up well enough.

The yellow "glue" they used on the fittings is likely CPVC cement, which is obviously not the correct glue for ABS

Your solution is aligned with how I was leaning … 4” copper to 3” abs shielded coupling. Can I put a street 22.5 right into the 3” side of that coupling?

just need to pick those up tomorrow.
 

Polecatt

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I don't see much challenge in framing the floor. might be a waste or over kill but adding a joist close to the toilet as possible , plus on left side you have that joist tail you could lap onto , its a pretty short length under 4 foot so any way you can get wood across just about is going to help.

Jeff, thanks for your thoughts on the framing. I’ve ripped down a 2x10 to match to the old school 2x8 height of the existing. I’ll be able to get a full span between the new flange and the existing joist, but they will only be about 2 1/2” apart. Other than that I’ll try to get a few additional stubs attached perpendicular back to the wall to support the outside edge along the wall.
The next challenge will be moving the sink supply and drain across to the other wall.
 

Tuttles Revenge

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Apparently we have yellow ABS cement locally…? Is that unexpected?

Absolutely bizarre.. But likely its yellow so that its visible to an inspector. The same reason that we don't use clear PVC primer and cement.

Your solution is aligned with how I was leaning … 4” copper to 3” abs shielded coupling. Can I put a street 22.5 right into the 3” side of that coupling?

Any combination of fittings you need to get there
 

Jeff H Young

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Apparently we have yellow ABS cement locally…? Is that unexpected?

View attachment 77009

Never seen Yellow ABS glue Id read the can carefully,and check the application . just like a glue that says pvc dosent mean its legal for all pvc uses it can be for electrical conduit. So saying ABS i dont know if there is abs plastic glue for some other application, It sounds like overkill on a drain line but I certainly no expert on plastic glue it will say on the can thoughif its approved for drainage pipe
 

Polecatt

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Never seen Yellow ABS glue Id read the can carefully,and check the application . just like a glue that says pvc dosent mean its legal for all pvc uses it can be for electrical conduit. So saying ABS i dont know if there is abs plastic glue for some other application, It sounds like overkill on a drain line but I certainly no expert on plastic glue it will say on the can thoughif its approved for drainage pipe

can says… “ABS solvent cement for ABS non-pressure applications.”

Here is the manufacturer website.

https://www.oateycanada.com/product/oatey-118-ml-standard-abs-cement-yellow-c
 

Polecatt

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Is there a definitive answer to the question of what type of pipe I’m connecting to? To me it looks
Like 4” brass, is that possible? Maybe it’s copper?
7E894510-7B97-4286-980F-32B32F2E661A.jpeg
 

Tuttles Revenge

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Is there a definitive answer to the question of what type of pipe I’m connecting to? To me it looks
Like 4” brass, is that possible? Maybe it’s copper?
View attachment 77012

I think its a brass or bronze. But from my experience a Copper sized Mission band fits those. If you carefully measure the outside dimension and compare to the same size copper, it should be very close. A 4" copper pipe has an outside diameter of 4.125 or 4-1/8"

In order to get the fernco band that they used to fit, they probably found one designed to fit 3" clay pipe.
 

Polecatt

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I think its a brass or bronze. But from my experience a Copper sized Mission band fits those. If you carefully measure the outside dimension and compare to the same size copper, it should be very close. A 4" copper pipe has an outside diameter of 4.125 or 4-1/8"

In order to get the fernco band that they used to fit, they probably found one designed to fit 3" clay pipe.
OD of this one is exactly 4 1/2”

the fernco is 1056-43

https://www.fernco.ca/dimensional-drawings/plumbing/flexible-couplings/stock-couplings-1056/1056-43
 

Jeff H Young

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