Red Sludge in bleach tank. Iron?

Ravens135

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I have a red precipitate in my chlorine tank. Trying to confirm that this is iron precipitating out once coming into contact with the chlorine.

I just cleaned this tank out with a garden hose 6 months ago. I fill this with 7.5:1 water to pool chlorine. The water fill source is post holding tank (where the chlorine is injected), whole home carbon filter, and softener.

Iron bacteria should not live in this bleach. Tannins should not precipitate out like this. This has to be residual iron, correct?

I will note that I have an issue with discolored, brownish water. I also recently noticed hat my carbon valve head is leaking by to drain. Is it possible that I'm not getting enough contact time in my holding tank to reduce iron/ diluting the chlorine due to the leak to drain?



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Reach4

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Iron bacteria should not live in this bleach. Tannins should not precipitate out like this. This has to be residual iron, correct?
After the chlorine treatment and softener, there should not be iron either.

This suggests a test where you use Rust Out (a clone of Iron Out, I think):
 

Bannerman

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Is it possible that I'm not getting enough contact time in my holding tank
Although you did not mention a pressure tank, when stating 'holding tank', I anticipate you are not referring to the well pump pressure tank but instead, referring to an actual contact/retention tank commonly utilized for increasing chlorine or hydrogen peroxide contact time when performing water treatment.

If you are referring to an actual retention/contact tank, how large is that tank? Is the tank equipped with baffles, or is it a standard retention tank? The gallons capacity and expected flow rate through a retention tank, will usually permit the amount of contact time to be estimated.

Is your retention tank equipped with a bottom blow-down drain valve to permit the oxydized ferric precipitates that will accumulate on the tank bottom, to be simply discharged to drain? If so, how often is blowdown being performed ?

I fill this with 7.5:1 water to pool chlorine.
Although you have stated the dilution rate when the chlorine solution is first mixed, the chlorine strength will begin to degrade almost immediately. Is this liquid 'pool' chlorine 12% sodium hypochlorite, or some other strength? You mentioned cleaning the solution tank 6-months ago so, not certain how often you are filling the solution tank. Since the solution strength maybe rapidly degrading between fills, you may want to check the solution strength at various intervals prior to when you usually refill with a fresh batch as the chlorine strength may have degraded long before the usual refill date is due.

You have also not stated the quantity of ferrous iron and other elements in your raw well water, nor have you stated the raw water pH. Ferrous elements including iron, are fully dissolved and common in raw well water whereas chlorine is an oxidizer that will cause those ferrous elements to be rapidly converted to a ferric state, so the resulting solids will precipitate out. Suggest posting a recent full lab test report for your raw well water.

What is the method of how the diluted chlorine is being supplied into the water stream prior to the contact/retention tank? Are you using an injection pump that operates whenever the well pump pressure switch supplies power to the pump, or possiby an injection pump that is controlled by a flow meter to supply a variable rate of chlorine solution in porportion to the flow rate during use? Perhaps the diluted chlorine is being delivered using a venturi type (non electric) injector?

What rate is the diluted chlorine solution being supplied? What is the residual chlorine strength (ppm) when the chlorinated water exits the retention tank, prior to entering the carbon tank?

What is the capacity of carbon in the tank? When was the carbon last replaced? What is the carbon's backwash frequency and backwash flow rate?
 

Ravens135

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Although you did not mention a pressure tank, when stating 'holding tank', I anticipate you are not referring to the well pump pressure tank but instead, referring to an actual contact/retention tank commonly utilized for increasing chlorine or hydrogen peroxide contact time when performing water treatment.

If you are referring to an actual retention/contact tank, how large is that tank? Is the tank equipped with baffles, or is it a standard retention tank? The gallons capacity and expected flow rate through a retention tank, will usually permit the amount of contact time to be estimated.

Is your retention tank equipped with a bottom blow-down drain valve to permit the oxydized ferric precipitates that will accumulate on the tank bottom, to be simply discharged to drain? If so, how often is blowdown being performed ?


Although you have stated the dilution rate when the chlorine solution is first mixed, the chlorine strength will begin to degrade almost immediately. Is this liquid 'pool' chlorine 12% sodium hypochlorite, or some other strength? You mentioned cleaning the solution tank 6-months ago so, not certain how often you are filling the solution tank. Since the solution strength maybe rapidly degrading between fills, you may want to check the solution strength at various intervals prior to when you usually refill with a fresh batch as the chlorine strength may have degraded long before the usual refill date is due.

You have also not stated the quantity of ferrous iron and other elements in your raw well water, nor have you stated the raw water pH. Ferrous elements including iron, are fully dissolved and common in raw well water whereas chlorine is an oxidizer that will cause those ferrous elements to be rapidly converted to a ferric state, so the resulting solids will precipitate out. Suggest posting a recent full lab test report for your raw well water.

What is the method of how the diluted chlorine is being supplied into the water stream prior to the contact/retention tank? Are you using an injection pump that operates whenever the well pump pressure switch supplies power to the pump, or possiby an injection pump that is controlled by a flow meter to supply a variable rate of chlorine solution in porportion to the flow rate during use? Perhaps the diluted chlorine is being delivered using a venturi type (non electric) injector?

What rate is the diluted chlorine solution being supplied? What is the residual chlorine strength (ppm) when the chlorinated water exits the retention tank, prior to entering the carbon tank?

What is the capacity of carbon in the tank? When was the carbon last replaced? What is the carbon's backwash frequency and backwash flow rate?
Thanks Bannerman for the detailed response. I'll try to give some answers:

Yes, I was referring to a large holding tank that is post well pressure tank.

This tank is 120 gallon. Well-made UT120. Standard I believe, not aware of any baffles.

Yes, there is a blowback valve. I open it 1/4 turn every 30 days for 1 minute.

Using 12% sodium hypochlorite, liquid pool chlorine. Fill frequency varies, depending on how much I add at once. It probably averages between every 1-2 months. I did not realize strength would degrade significantly, thanks for this info.

I do not have a recent well test. I was supplied the original from well drilling circa 2001. Not sure if even relevant 25 years later. Those values were:

Turbidity: 13 ntu
Iron: .44 mg/l
Alkalinity, tot (as CaCO3): 290 mg/l
Hardness as CaCO3: 285 mg/l
Manganese: .02 mg/l
Sodium: 16.6 mg/
PH: 7.2

Chlorine is injected from a stenner pump at the inlet before the 120gallon holding tank. There is a flow switch that turns the pump on whenever water is running in the home, switch is located after the holding tank. Stenner pump only runs at one rate no matter how much water is actually being used.

The only way to change the injection rate is on the physical chlorine pump, which has a dial from 1-12. Currently set to 12 for max injection per prior owner.

I will need to test the residual chlorine post holding tank/ pre carbon. I only have expired hach strips at the moment.

Carbon tank is 9x48 I believe. Fleck 5600 12 day. Dial is set to "6". Drain flow gpm is labeled "5". Unsure of actual media/capacity. I've owned home for 5 years, system is from 2011 I believe. May be original, but atleast 5 years old.

Again, I do have a leak to drain at the carbon valve. Placing it In bypass stops the trickling water noise I hear in the drain plumbing. I will be replacing stack/seals etc as recommended. I will do the carbon media at this time, however I am a bit unsure as to what I'll need for that.

Once again, I am grateful for your time and help.
 

Reach4

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I open it 1/4 turn every 30 days for 1 minute.
What does the material look like when you do that?

A short hose guiding the first output stuff to a white bucket would make that more observable.

I will need to test the residual chlorine post holding tank/ pre carbon. I only have expired hach strips at the moment.
I wonder how degraded the strips get when past expiration. Might be good enough to qualitatively monitor if the carbon is still doing its job. Even if you are replacing the carbon anyway, it could be useful to see if there is a difference in strip indication before and after media swap.

Chlorine is injected from a stenner pump at the inlet before the 120gallon holding tank. There is a flow switch that turns the pump on whenever water is running in the home, switch is located after the holding tank. Stenner pump only runs at one rate no matter how much water is actually being used.
An injector after the pressure tank and a flow sensor downstream of the presure tank would usually call for a proportional sensor for use with a proportional pump.

What Stenner model?
 

Ravens135

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What does the material look like when you do that?

A short hose guiding the first output stuff to a white bucket would make that more observable.


I wonder how degraded the strips get when past expiration. Might be good enough to qualitatively monitor if the carbon is still doing its job. Even if you are replacing the carbon anyway, it could be useful to see if there is a difference in strip indication before and after media swap.


An injector after the pressure tank and a flow sensor downstream of the presure tank would usually call for a proportional sensor for use with a proportional pump.

What Stenner model?
Thanks again Reach for support.

I cannot visually see my blowback material. Hard plumbed directly out of my foundation into septic via pvc.

I tested with the expired strips post holding tank, pre carbon. Not detecting a visual change on the strips for what that is worth.

Stenner pump is model 85MHP17. Correction from prior post, dial is 1-10.
 

Reach4

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Stenner pump is model 85MHP17

It appears you put this in line with the power to make it proportional:

has diagram.

Do you understand why the pump system should be proportional if injecting downstream of the pressure tank?
 

Ravens135

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It appears you put this in line with the power to make it proportional:

has diagram.

Do you understand why the pump system should be proportional if injecting downstream of the pressure tank?
Interesting. Yes, I always thought it was inaccurate to have the same injection amount whether I'm running a trickle of water out of the sink or if I'm running full water flow out of a bathtub. Obviously that is going to change the ratio in the holding tank quite significantly.
 

Ravens135

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Bumping this back up in hopes that Bannerman may have some additional information based of my responses.
 

Bannerman

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do not have a recent well test. I was supplied the original from well drilling circa 2001. Not sure if even relevant 25 years later.
Water conditions may have changed significantly over that time period. Generally recommended for well owners to have their raw water tested at least every 3-5 years. A private well owner is the water supplier and so the well's owner is fully responsible for water conditions and safety.

As no water test has been perform over a long time period, suggest obtaining a lab test right away. If the new test indicates conditions have changed significantly since the previous test, then you probably should have the water retested again after 1-2 years. That increased inital testing frequency should then indicate if conditions continue to change, and if so, at what rate.

While it is not this forum's purpose to recommend suppliers or testing labs, you may not know of any. National Labs is frequently recommended as they specialize in both Well and Municipal water testing, and they offer a comprehensive detailed written report that is straightforward to understand.

1 part 12% chlorine mixed with 7.5 parts water, results in a chlorine solution strength of 1.41% when the solution is initially prepared. Diluted solution will typically undergo slower flash off than undiluted chlorine, but the usual recommendation will be to mix sufficient solution for consumption within 30 days or less. If too much solution is being prepared, then significant flash off maybe occuring, so any remaining solution being injected, may not provide much of any benefit, perhaps closer to injecting plain water.

Because the water flow rate varies in relation to the constant rate that chlorine is injected, we can't really calculate the strength of chlorine within the tank. As the flow switch is located on the exit pipe at the top, any water exiting the retention tank through an alternate pathway such as the water discharged during blowdown, will not cause the Stenner pump to run.

tested with the expired strips post holding tank, pre carbon. Not detecting a visual change on the strips for what that is worth.
I interpret this to mean no difference in the amount of chlorine measured post retention tank vs post carbon tank. I also anticipate, no chlorine was indicated whatsoever.

When the chlorine entering the retention tank is less than required to oxidize the full quantity of ferrous iron, manganese or hydrogen sulfide (H2S), or to neutralize bacteria, then the chlorine will be consumed and there will be no residual chlorine measured exiting from the retention tank. To assist to ensure all of the chlorine remains active throughout the entire tank, there is to be residual chlorine present in the outflow, which should be minimally 0.2ppm, but ideally, 0.3 - 1.0 ppm. The residual chlorine will then be removed by the carbon filter that follows.

When there is insufficient chlorine for the water conditions, then some amount of ferrous iron, manganese and H2S will pass through the tank into the carbon filter. While the carbon may reduce some H2S if present, it will not remove ferrous iron or manganese, so those elements will proceed-on to the softener.

While a softener is capable of removing some amount of ferrous iron and manganese, I anticipate your softener had not been programmed for that additional load since it had likely been anticipated for the ferrous elements to have been oxidized and removed within prior retention and carbon tanks. When softening resin is exposed to ongoing ferrous iron and/or manganese, those elements will accumulate on the softening resin, therby resulting in the resin becoming fouled and less effective. To restore softening capacity and proper operation, will then require either replacement of the resin and gravel, or possibly removing the accumulation from the resin using strong applications of Super Iron Out, Citric Acid or other acid based resin cleaner.

This tank is 120 gallon. Well-made UT120.

That tank is Standard, not equipped with baffles. Baffles ensure the solution will be thoroughly mixed with the water and, will alter the internal flow path so incoming water cannot be directed toward the top outlet port. Baffles then assst in maximizing contact time for the chlorine to act on the ferrous iron, manganese and H2S before the treated water exits from the tank.

A 120 gallon retention tank, even when water is flowing at a higher than average rate of 8 GPM, should then result in 15-minutes contact time which is usually more than sufficient. If the flow rate is a more common 6 GPM or less, typically occuring in a single family residence, contact time will be 20-minutes or longer.

there is a blowback valve. I open it 1/4 turn every 30 days for 1 minute.
As water conditions may have significantly changed over 25 years, that blowdown frequency and duration could potentially be insufficient, but, you have no ability to monitor the discharge.

You might consider installing a short section of clear tubing into the drain line so you can al least observe when the discharge becomes clear. If there is significant debris being eliminated, it's likely that some accumulation will occur within the tubing over time and so the tubing section will probably need to be periodically replaced.
 
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