Recommendation For Water Softener In My Area

[J Z]

I've been looking at some water softener systems online and casually browsing this forum. I live in southern California close to Temecula. The water here is fairly hard. From the municipality's report I have the following details:

* hardness: 220 (50-280) mg/L. So about 14GPG, if I calculated correctly.
* calcium: 60 (20-70) mg/L
* magnesium: 18 (ND-25) mg/L
* potassium: 3.2 (1.1-4.5) mg/L
* sodium: 92 (86-100) mg/L
...
* disinfectant chloramines: 1.38 (0.08-2.9) mg/L

I didn't see any information on Iron, but when the water company did a flush I did get some red water and sand.

My house has about 2-6 people (it varies due my kids coming back from school, or my inlaws staying with us for few months or a year). It's usually 4 people most of the year. We have 3 bathrooms, and the house is about 3K sqft.

From a simple calculator I found online (http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/water_softener_sizing.htm) , for 2-6 people at 14GPG we need to remove 2100-6300 grains per day. That means I probably need a system with 48K grain capacity.


Here's my concerns, other than the price:
* From my house, the main problem seems be the the draining. It would probably need to run about 100 ft within garage to get to the cleanout access outside of house next to kitchen.
* I've read that the drainage system needs to be vented. If there cleanout access is connected properly, shoudl it be already vented?
* I would prefer metered regeneration over timed as the people living in the house is not constant. For some weeks it's 2. Other times it's 4 or 6. If I get timed generation, should that cause much of an effect?
* I don't know if I need a dual tank or single tank system. If you need me to answer any questions let me know.
* If possible I'd like to be able to source parts easily from more than one location if I need a plumber to fix it.
* Is a prefilter absolutely needed given what I have above from my municipality? Sometimes the city flushes the lines or an earthquake happens, or something rattles the pipes. At those times I get some sandy or rusty red water. My RO prefilter over 6 months does build up some sand, but nothing excessive. But due to how long the water softener might operate without being serviced, I felt a prefilter might be necessary.


My quotes from some dealers:
I contacted Culligan and Kinetico and hope to hear from them later this week.

I've asked Ecowater from costco and the quote was around $5K. If I added Reverse Osmosis and a prefilter it jumped up another $1K. It seemed a bit high. My main problem was that the salesman was too pushy.

I spoke briefly with Lowe's Krystal Pure. They haven't quoted me an exact price, but from a brief estimate it was around $2-$3K. My problem here is that I can't find much details about this company's product other than some complaints. Since you guys mostly recommend Fleck, I figured I should look further.

I got one quote from a local dealer, and for a system with a Fleck 5810 it would cost about $2.2K. A blue prefilter would cost me about $500. The dealer recommends this system due to the higher GPM over the 7000 series and the 9100. The prices includes installation. Is this a fair price? I forgot to ask the dealer, but from what you know does this system (fleck 5810) handled metered regeneration?

One online dealer has recommended the fleck 9100 dual tank system with 60,000 grain capacity with a higher flow valve. The system would cost me about ~$1.4K (no tax, shipping included). I would need to higher plumber for installation. They have another system called the fusion NLT which is lower cost, and weighs less. For the price and system, is this reasonable price? How much would a plumber charge to install given that I have a long drain pipe to consider?
====


I'm not much of a handyman and would prefer job be done correctly, but it seems the prices are too varying to know what is fair. For my local dealer, it has favorable reviews on Yelp, but I've been misled before from Yelp reviews.


One more thing:
The pipe leading to my house has a rusted valve/knob. There's probably a pressure regulator. It's movable but requires too much force and will release some rust when it is turned. If it won't open 100% or close reasonably easy, should I replace that valve/knob and pressure regulator? If so, how much would it cost?


Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

I got one quote from a local dealer, and for a system with a Fleck 5810 it would cost about $2.2K. A blue prefilter would cost me about $500. The dealer recommends this system due to the higher GPM over the 7000 series and the 9100.

The GPM limit would not be due to a 7000 valve. If there is a limit, it would be the SFR of the 1.5 cuft of resin rather than the 7000 valve. You can read about SFR from the link you posted.

A single tank is usually better for a residence where the schedule is fairly normal. 10% crosslinked resin may be worthwhile.

2.2K seem high to me. I figure about $300 for a plumber install including a short flex tubing drain, but there is probably an adder for coastal California. Add some more for your long drain line.

I like a Big Blue 20x4.5 filter housing for minimal backpressure and readily available cartridges. I bypass around the filter would let you keep your water going if the filter failed. I don't have a bypass, but I do keep an extra O-ring and silicone grease around.

For a drain line, you want 3/4 for that long. Do you have a laundry sink or standpipe? That would be a more common place for the drain than a cleanout.

 

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[ditttohead]

I never recommend the FUsion... enough said.

The price from your local dealer sounds good, reasonable compared to most. The 5810 valve has become one of our best sellers. It is very high tech, made by Fleck, and so far has been problem free. The high speed drive is great and the flow rates are impressive. My only complaint with the 5810 is the lack of available connectors, but these are on the way. The connector issue would not concern you at all, more of an issue with the installers, they always want every possible connection that they can conceive. It even has direct connect stainless flex lines in multiple sizes and types which really nearly eliminates my earlier complaint.

 

[Reach4]

It is very high tech, made by Fleck, and so far has been problem free. The high speed drive is great and the flow rates are impressive.

Is there any advantage of the 5810 for the end user with a 1.5 cuft softener vs the 7000SXT?

 

[ditttohead]

A very slight increase in Peak flow rate, a much more modern valve, better bypass design, larger internal riser, much easier servicing in the future, mainly 15 years newer design. The internals are a cartridge design, externally serviceable meter (no more taking the plumbing apart to get to the turbine, the piston is a composite rather than a Teflon coated brass, etc. It has quickly become our best selling valve.

I am replacing my 7000 in my house with the 5810 or 5812 in the near future and I have already installed the 5810 in my parents house, and a few relatives,

Here is a unique picture of the bypasses, you can see the sizes, the newest bypass is on the right. You can see how they have increased in port size ove the years. The 5810 bypass makes the others look puny in comparison. The old 5600 stainless bypass... amazing that this thing flows enough water for most residential applications.

 

[J Z]

The GPM limit would not be due to a 7000 valve. If there is a limit, it would be the SFR of the 1.5 cuft of resin rather than the 7000 valve. You can read about SFR from the link you posted.

A single tank is usually better for a residence where the schedule is fairly normal. 10% crosslinked resin may be worthwhile.

2.2K seem high to me. I figure about $300 for a plumber install including a short flex tubing drain, but there is probably an adder for coastal California. Add some more for your long drain line.

I like a Big Blue 20x4.5 filter housing for minimal backpressure and readily available cartridges. I bypass around the filter would let you keep your water going if the filter failed. I don't have a bypass, but I do keep an extra O-ring and silicone grease around.

For a drain line, you want 3/4 for that long. Do you have a laundry sink or standpipe? That would be a more common place for the drain than a cleanout.

I look into the SFR. I don't understand much, but I'll read into it. I wanted the dual tank design because I didn't want to play around with the regeneration much when my household size changes (which does vary over the year).

For the big blue filter housing (which is what this dealer offers), should I request a pressure meter? I looked on youtube and saw some system have up to 3 of them. One is a sediment filter, the other is an Carbon filter, and then something else. Do you recommend one filter or two? My local dealer's is a carbon filter and it list it is a sediment filter. My municipality uses chloramine so I don't know if the Carbon filter would help to clear that.

The dealer said he would install a 1/2" schedule 40 pipe for the long drain. I don't have a laundry sink or standpipe in the garage unfortunately. I hope he can do it properly.

I never recommend the FUsion... enough said.

The price from your local dealer sounds good, reasonable compared to most. The 5810 valve has become one of our best sellers. It is very high tech, made by Fleck, and so far has been problem free. The high speed drive is great and the flow rates are impressive. My only complaint with the 5810 is the lack of available connectors, but these are on the way. The connector issue would not concern you at all, more of an issue with the installers, they always want every possible connection that they can conceive. It even has direct connect stainless flex lines in multiple sizes and types which really nearly eliminates my earlier complaint.View attachment 34152

Does the 5810 recharged based on gallons used? Using my varying household size, will it be able to regenerate in a certain time range of day and still flush it weekly? I asked about the weekly thing because I read on forums one wants to flush it out once a week or so.

When the dealer quoted me the price he included a bunch of free extras he can do in the plumbing. It made it seems similar to when I bought my first car and paid MSRP (which was my mistake not knowing I had to haggle). That car dealer threw in a bunch of car mats and small extras for "free" probably because he felt guilty I paid full price.

 

[Reach4]

For the big blue filter housing (which is what this dealer offers), should I request a pressure meter? I looked on youtube and saw some system have up to 3 of them. One is a sediment filter, the other is an Carbon filter, and then something else. Do you recommend one filter or two? My local dealer's is a carbon filter and it list it is a sediment filter. My municipality uses chloramine so I don't know if the Carbon filter would help to clear that.

Normally I would think one for city water. A pressure gauge before and after would let you tell if the element needs replacing, but most people don't have even one gauge. I have 3 housings because I ordered that for my well water before I decided to to start with a backwashing iron+sulfur filter. That left not much for the Pentek Big Blue filter housings to do. I leave the first one empty.

Chloramine removal in a Big Blue cartridge... I don't know. I think I would get some low range test paper to see how much residual you have.

Does the 5810 recharged based on gallons used? Using my varying household size, will it be able to regenerate in a certain time range of day and still flush it weekly? I asked about the weekly thing because I read on forums one wants to flush it out once a week or so.

Yes the controller can do that-- at least there are versions that do, and I have to believe your provider provides a "demand driven" controller. The one week "day override" would be used if you had some iron in your well water. Your city water does not have iron or manganese. So you can go longer with your day override setting.

One big tank is usually better for a residence. You could go to a 2 cuft of resin rather than 1.5 if you want more capacity.

 

[ditttohead]

Adding a BB for anything other than sediment removal is not really worth it. BB simply don't have the capacity or contact time to be effective for chloramine reduction. In a municipal application a sediment filter is rarely needed but if it makes you feel more comfortable, it would not hurt. Be sure they install a 3 valve bypass around the BB filter. Housings can fail over time especially if the company installs one of the many cheap BB that are available. I would recommend only the Pentek BB original housing. I have seen many of the knock off housings fail. A pressure gauge is always a good idea but be aware. Many companies use really cheap gauges that are not even legal for use in potable applications due to the high lead content of the components used in them. It must be lead free to meet potable plumbing code requirements. As to the metered question, all softeners sold in California in a residential application must be metered. Time clock systems have not been allowed for many years. I would recommend the larger system as well. Considering the size of your house/bathrooms, the 2 CF system would be ideal and would easily handle even your heaviest water demands with the 5810.

 

[J Z]

Hi dittohead, I was referred a link to an old posting regarding the 5800sxt.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-5800sxt-first-install-review.46417/

Currently you mention the problems with lack of availability of connectors to the 5810. Has the problems you noted for the 5800 sxt, in above thread, been fixed in the 5810 sxt?

 

[ditttohead]

That was years ago, and it was a review on a prototype pre-release valve. It was a minor programming correction, they had to slow the drive down. This valve cycles faster than any other valve on the market. Once they tweaked the speed down a bit, it works flawlessly.
As to the connectors issue, my dealers want everything, every connection types, every configuration. Currently all of the most important ones are available. I have been told the oddball and obscure connections are in the works. Basically just icing on the cake when it comes to the connectors. The real unique items are the stainless connectors. This valve has the best large pipe options available including 1" x John Guest, 1/1-4" and 1-1/2" connections.