Ranch Plumbing up to 3000ft distance

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Nick Falzon

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Hi!

First let me say I have no irrigation experience and any misuse of naming please forgive me.

I have a 43 acre ranch. I have at water line that I would like to run out about 3oook -5000ft feet with minimal rise and drop (3 branches all on Y's). I've attached a rough drawing

So from water PUMP source:
800ft straight run with ~6 pvc risers out of ground for sprinklers
@800ft Y (one continues straight and one goes uphill at about a 200 foot climb.
These both continue about 1000ft with another 8 risers out of ground for sprinklers
Also a Y at beginning that runs downhill about 300ft then follows main line for about 2000ft

This is a pasture land of about 30 acres that I'm trying to get water out too. I want to use a solar pump to pull from my HOUSE feed which has about a 50PSI at source, then use a pump to up that into the lines in the pasture.

Anyone have suggestions? I am willing to do water rows or sprinkler rows or something new.

use.jpg
 

Nick Falzon

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Will 3/4 pipe be enough with a pump to push pressure to the end?
Anyone with experience in this?
 

wwhitney

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This question is fairly complicated and you need to provide a lot more info.

You need to determine the exact elevation extrema involved--50 psi is equivalent 115 feet of head, so if you have a 200 ft rise, without an additional pump the water would only rise 115 feet up that pipe.

You need to specify the current source of water and pressure (is it a pump and pressure tank on a 40/60 switch? Then you'll need to design for the minimum 40 psi, rather than the average 50 psi, or perhaps change to a 50/70 cycle), as well as the existing piping type, size, and length from the existing pump to where you want to start extending the water supply.

You need to specify the flow rates you want to get at the end (and if each yellow dot is a sprinkler, at each sprinkler). Then if the pipe sizes required end up too big, figure out a way to reduce the simultaneous demand (maybe run the sprinklers one at a time via some electric controls).

As an example, suppose you used 3/4" SIDR 11.5 160 psi poly pipe, which has an ID of 0.824". Say you have a level 2000 ft run of that pipe, and you provide 50 psi at one end, and have a sprinkler at the other end, and the sprinkler needs 30 psi to operate. Then your allowable friction loss is only 20 psi, and you will only get 3.3 gpm out of the sprinkler (for a sprinkler that puts out 3.3 gpm at 30 psi). A useful tool:

http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php

Cheers, Wayne
 

Nick Falzon

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THANKS WAYNE!

The image is a top down image.

The center horizontal line is mostly flat ground and half way to end it goes down hill.
The upper horizontal on angle line is uphill maybe a few hundred feet at a 20 degree rise, a gentle slop up then it's flat.
The lower horizontal line is all flat
The furthest right line is 200-300 feet 30degree's slope down hill.

I know it's very complicated which is why I came here. I wonder if anyone did anything like this, i'm sure there is no out of the box solution. I want to use sprinklers to wet the ground for pasture grasss or just open the line and let it flood.
 

Nick Falzon

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main source of water will be a split from line from the house. It's 3/4 and the pressure at that line is 50psi. I expect to run a pump after that to push to the field.

My main line comes from a well tank which is a shit show install. 5/8 from meter then into 2" pipe up to my house then back down to 3/4 It is horrible.
 

wwhitney

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If you have a well, why is there a meter? How much flow can the well produce?

The uphill/downhill description is not very useful. You need to go to the various points and use a GPS to get elevation, or an equivalent method. E.g. "the spigot nearest where I'm going to split off for this is at 2050 ft; then the highest point I want to irrigate is 2230 ft, and the lowest point is at 1995 ft."

My initial reaction (without calculations) is that your water resources may be too small for the application, but I don't know.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Nick Falzon

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Thanks Wayne!

We are in a rural town, there is a storage tank above my property that flows into my meter that is then fed to me. Hokey I know.

will a pump pull water as well as push it? I was hoping that the pump would PULL water from my line and PUSH it down the line for the application. I'm not going to get rocket science accuracy as I am sure you would. If you are ever in Central Ca and want to make a few hundred bucks maybe you can enlighten me with an in person tutorial! I am in Lake Isabella, Ca at the Ride Or Die Ranch
 

Jeff H Young

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probebly need to know where that meter is with relation to the piping layout is it where youve marked pump and 50 psi? size of meter? elevation at that location and gpm at your sprinkler head/ heads assuming more than one will run at a time. if its just one at a time or 20 it matters
 

Reach4

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While GPS is not as accurate for elevation as it is for north-south, it is probably close enough. Consider that to measure elevation.

How much water do you think your new uses will take in maybe a month? That will help decide how efficient your booster pump needs to be. Consider what GPM you will be wanting too.

For each 10 ft of altitude rise, you will need a little under 5 psi (4.36) of pressure over and above what pressure you want to drive your sprinkler. Impact sprinklers like more pressure, but cover bigger areas. Additionally you need to overcome the friction from the water flow.
 

Nick Falzon

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While GPS is not as accurate for elevation as it is for north-south, it is probably close enough. Consider that to measure elevation.

How much water do you think your new uses will take in maybe a month? That will help decide how efficient your booster pump needs to be. Consider what GPM you will be wanting too.

For each 10 ft of altitude rise, you will need a little under 5 psi (4.36) of pressure over and above what pressure you want to drive your sprinkler. Impact sprinklers like more pressure, but cover bigger areas. Additionally you need to overcome the friction from the water flow.
I expect to use a few thousand gallons a month. The water main is over 800ft from house. The pressure at house which is at least 200 feet above main is 50psi. I am going to T off that so all PSI will push to the pasture. OR I can push to a tank but I'd prefer to NOT buy a tank.
 

Nick Falzon

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I expect to use a few thousand gallons a month. The water main is over 800ft from house. The pressure at house which is at least 200 feet above main is 50psi. I am going to T off that so all PSI will push to the pasture. OR I can push to a tank but I'd prefer to NOT buy a tank.
I mean 30k gallons per month
 

Nick Falzon

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probebly need to know where that meter is with relation to the piping layout is it where youve marked pump and 50 psi? size of meter? elevation at that location and gpm at your sprinkler head/ heads assuming more than one will run at a time. if its just one at a time or 20 it matters
I don't mind staging some sprinklers with shutofs... for example last 3 first then next 3 and so on. I just need to get water out 2500~ feet from my source with about 30-50PSI on each branch. Each branch will be it's own line via shutoff.
 

Jadnashua

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Two things affect the pressure at your outlets.
- the pressure will drop 0.43-psi for each foot of elevation you need to push the water up from the source
- the dynamic pressure will drop based on the volume of flow, the length of the pipe, and the diameter of the pipe

Starting with 50-psi, if you want it to go up 200' and have 50 psi at the outlet, 0.43*200 you'd have to start with 86 - psi higher than the 50-psi you started with, or 136-psi. But, you're going to have a lot of frictional losses along that long pipe, so you will either need more pressure, or larger lines so your frictional losses won't become huge.

There's a limit on how much volume you can get from your 3/4" line, and you'll likely end up with that pressure dropping considerably, which will also limit your available volume.

I think the only way to get decent volume might be to put a tank close to the point of use, and pump from there. That will allow you to fill it up in between uses for irrigation, and not worry about a big pump, at least to get it there, and use smaller pipe to feed that tank so you'll only need larger pipe from there to the sprinkler heads, with a pump to get your desired pressure. If you put your tank at the highest point, you could use a smaller pump since that elevation will help on the lower sections.
 

wwhitney

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If I wanted to do what you describe, here's how I would proceed, based on one sprinkler at a time, with all sprinklers identical.

1) Pick a place to tie in to the existing supply for irrigation. Could be chosen for proximity and convenience and having some part of the step (2) plumbing already done; or could be chosen to be as upstream as possible to minimize pressure loss upstream of the tie-in point. Location could be reevaluated based on the initial calculations.

2) Stub up a riser with a pressure gauge (could be a hose bibb for a hose bibb pressure gauge) and a downstream ball valve. [The optimal geometric arrangement of the pressure gauge and the ball valve to minimize dynamic effects on the pressure measurements is not something I know, and is something I would like to know. My understanding is that the effects are not large, but I'm not 100% on that.] Measure the static pressure (no flow). Open the ball valve and measure the flow rate (how long to fill up a calibrated 5 gallon bucket) and the residual pressure on the gauge. These numbers characterize the water supply available at that point.

3) Determine the sprinkler model to be used and its specification for flow rate and required pressure at the sprinkler at that flow rate for design operation. Smaller numbers are easier to make work (smaller pipe sizes required), e.g. 5 gpm @ 20 psi is a lot easier than 10 gpm @ 40 psi. [A further optimization might be to use more frequent sprinklers with a lower demand near the end of each branch, with larger sprinklers with a higher demand closer to the source.] Based on the numbers from (2), determine the residual pressure at the tie-in point for the design flow of one sprinkler. [Calculation details omitted for now, but you could confirm the calculation by throttling the ball valve until the flow rate matches the sprinkler design flow, and measuring the residual pressure.]

4) Relative to the location in part (2), determine the elevation of each sprinkler location. Convert those elevations to psi (2.3' = 1 psi). Associate to each sprinkler a psi budget for frictional losses: the residual pressure from (3) - sprinkler required pressure from (3) - elevation in psi. Where the budget is at least, say, 5 psi, you could supply those sprinklers without a pump. Where it's less than 0 you need to use a pump (or if close to zero, switch to a sprinkler with a lower psi requirement for the design flow). Between 0 and 5 psi, it's possible without a pump, but you might need to use a really big pipe size.

5) So consider first a totally level branch. Based on the distance to the end of the branch, and the residual pressure, and the type of pipe you want to use (from what I gather here, probably a 100 PSI - 200 PSI rated poly would be typical), and the particular ID of that pipe for the various nominal sizes, determine the size pipe you need so that the frictional losses at the design sprinkler flow for that length and ID do not exceed the psi budget. [See the calculator posted earlier.] For this case you can run the resulting size pipe along with an electrical conduit for sufficiently large wires for a solenoid valve for your sprinkler, so that a central controller can alternate the sprinklers for you.

6) Now you mention one branch goes downhill at the end; that works to your advantage. Your psi budget at the end is larger than if the branch were level, but after you size the pipe based on the end, you should double check the higher up sprinklers until you get back to level. They will have lower psi budgets, but the distance from the source will be less. You also need to check the static psi at the low point of the branch (just the static measurement from (2) plus the elevation loss in psi) and be sure your pipe is rated at least that many psi.

7) Lastly for the uphill branch it sounds like you will have sprinklers with a negative psi budget. Say the lowest number is -50 psi. I would think +20 psi would be a good minimum budget for pipe sizing (you could go higher). That means you would need a pump that can add 70 psi while passing the design flow rate of one sprinkler. [I know very little about how to pick a pump, but that's the key criterion for the design.] Simplest would be to add the pump at the start of that branch. Then for the actual pump you pick, determine the psi added at the sprinkler design flow rate (should be at least 70 psi for this example). Add that psi to the psi budget of all the sprinklers downstream of the pump. Now you can again size the pipe for the branch based on the psi budget and distance to the end sprinkler, assuming that's the highest sprinkler and will therefore control the design. Your pipe will need to rated for the static pressure at the pump location plus the maximum pressure the pump can generate plus a safety margin.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Jadnashua

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3000' of pipe at any decent flow rate will have a huge amount of pressure loss unless your line size goes way up.

You said your input supply is a 3/4" pipe. That may be adequate for your home, but adding 3000' to that line, it would not! There's a reason why most distribution system piping is quite large. The friction and thus pressure loss goes way up when the pipe gets small and the distances go up. If you use the calculator here Calculator: Pressure Loss through Piping for Water | TLV - A Steam Specialist Company (USA) to get 50-psi on say a 3/4" pipe, 3000' long, you'd need over 800-psi coming in to get 16 gpm with 50-psi at the outlet, but only about 53-psi on a 2-1/2" pipe...not counting any losses from elevation changes. Water pressure frictional losses will be huge unless you use a large pipe, or can live with a trickle of water.

You need to know three things if you're going to have any success:
- the actual distance the water needs to flow
- the actual elevation increase
- the volume of water you need at what flow rate.

WIthout that information, it's all just a WAG, and potentially expensive one if you have to redo it.

With a 3/4" inlet from the source, the 3000' extension pipe will need to be quite large to overcome the frictional losses during flow, not counting the elevation gain. A 3/4" line is likely good for maybe 20-gpm under ideal conditions with some pressure losses, but not when you add a 3000' extention to it!

As a trial, back where you intend to make the connection for the extension, measure the flow rate. It won't increase, it will only decrease, once you add the extension, and then, you may cut off a lot of flow into the house. My guess is that inside the house, while you may have 3/4" lines, the line TO your house is probably larger...you need to be able to tap off of that to get any decent volume out into your fields without impacting the house, and that may take overnight to fill a reservoir you can pump out of during the irrigation time depending on how large that supply line to the house is.
 
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