Quick question: BF time when decreasing from 40k to either 36 or 32k grain

Users who are viewing this thread

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
We are once again going in circles.

Suggest reading the previous posts in this thread, particularly post #s 30 & 36 where the answer to your latest question was already given.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Please post a photo of the rear of your control valve showing the meter sensor that measures the number of gallons of softened water exiting your softener. The sensor will be located in between the bypass valve and main control valve on the plumbing connection to the left when facing the softener from the front. It will have an electrical cable protruding from it.

There are two types of meter sensors that can be used with the Fleck 5600SXT - a turbine type or a paddle wheel. Your earlier thread shows the Turbine version is programmed (FM = t0.7), but it would be best to verify the actual FM installed is not the paddle wheel version (FM = p0.7).

Each type of sensor communicates gallons differently to the controller so if the incorrect type is selected in the programming, then the correct gallons of softened water will not be recognized by the controller. If the controller 'thinks' less gallons are being softened, it will indicate you are using less soft water than you actually are and regeneration may then be initiated by the DO setting instead of when the actual programmed capacity has been consumed.
 
Last edited:

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Please post a photo of the rear of your control valve showing the meter sensor that measures the number of gallons of softened water exiting your softener. The sensor will be located in between the bypass valve and main control valve on the plumbing connection to the left when facing the softener from the front. It will have an electrical cable protruding from it.

There are two types of meter sensors that can be used with the Fleck 5600SXT - a turbine type or a paddle wheel. Your earlier thread shows the Turbine version is programmed (FM = t0.7), but it would be best to verify the actual FM installed is not the paddle wheel version (FM = p0.7).

Each type of sensor communicates gallons differently to the controller so if the incorrect type is selected in the programming, then the correct gallons of softened water will not be recognized by the controller. If the controller 'thinks' less gallons are being softened, it will indicate you are using less soft water than you actually are and regeneration may then be initiated by the DO setting instead of when the actual programmed capacity has been consumed.

I’ll take a look. What label Or sticker am I looking for it to say? What is the most common type of sensor? I have a fleck 5600 sxt purchased in 2018
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Please post a photo of the rear of your control valve showing the meter sensor that measures the number of gallons of softened water exiting your softener. The sensor will be located in between the bypass valve and main control valve on the plumbing connection to the left when facing the softener from the front. It will have an electrical cable protruding from it.

There are two types of meter sensors that can be used with the Fleck 5600SXT - a turbine type or a paddle wheel. Your earlier thread shows the Turbine version is programmed (FM = t0.7), but it would be best to verify the actual FM installed is not the paddle wheel version (FM = p0.7).

Each type of sensor communicates gallons differently to the controller so if the incorrect type is selected in the programming, then the correct gallons of softened water will not be recognized by the controller. If the controller 'thinks' less gallons are being softened, it will indicate you are using less soft water than you actually are and regeneration may then be initiated by the DO setting instead of when the actual programmed capacity has been consumed.

00i0i_cFBBFyneKe7_1200x900.jpg

00q0q_7Kco0Mt80v9_1200x900.jpg

00c0c_608puzMzpJi_1200x900.jpg
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
What label Or sticker am I looking for it to say?
It won't have any identifying label which is why I requested a photo as we can identify each type by appearance. I clearly described where it is located.

There was a previous forum poster that was experiencing various capacity usage issues. After numerous setting changes and other ideas to attempt to remidy her issues, she finally posted a photo whereby we realized her flow meter and FM settings did not match. Once the setting was changed, that fixed the problem.

I asked for the remaining capacity when your unit regenerated at 30 days as I expected based on your stated consumption that your unit should have regenerated by demand before the 30 days had elapsed. When you said there was remaining capacity, I then anticipated the amount should be insignificant. Your later comments seem to hint there was a large amount of unused capacity, but since you did not state the quantity, and without clarification being provided, the matter remains unclear.

If there was significant capacity remaining when regeneration was forced by the DO setting at 30 days, the FM setting not matching the actual FM hardware could be the reason so best to verify.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
That is a Paddle wheel meter, not a Turbine.

The FM setting needs to be changed to FM=P0.7

After changing the FM type, reset the C to 40 and BF to 8 minutes and perform a manual regeneration as the remaining capacity now displayed is incorrect. Use these settings for a few automatic regeneration cycles to get an idea of the real number of days before regeneration will occur.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
That's going to speed up the gallon countdown
Exactly! The countdown will now represent the true gallons softened.

With the Turbine setting programmed, the controller was counting 133 meter pulses to equal 1 gallon, but the Paddle Wheel meter only sends 20 pulses per gallon. 6.65 gallons passing through the meter was only counted as 1 gallon by the controller.
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
That is a Paddle wheel meter, not a Turbine.

The FM setting needs to be changed to FM=P0.7

After changing the FM type, reset the C to 40 and BF to 8 minutes and perform a manual regeneration as the remaining capacity now displayed is incorrect. Use these settings for a few automatic regeneration cycles to get an idea of the real number of days before regeneration will occur.

Holy moly guys. What would I do without you! I truly appreciate your guys’ time with all this, helping a newbie with not much knowledge on the subject.

For my knowledge, how common is paddle wheel meter vs turbine? Is there a difference in performance? How has my incorrect setting affected the softener performance or has it been detrimental to my system?

Can I go back to C = 40, H = 13, BF = 8?
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Simple answer, round up.

Hey ditto, you helped me a lot last year too. Thanks. And if I can ask what do you mean round up? I ended up with C = 40, H = 13, Bf = 8 from all your guys recommendations last year when I set it up. Just curious if I could keep these settings but change FM = p0.7 and be done with it? Thanks...
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,088
Reaction score
455
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
Holy moly guys. What would I do without you! I truly appreciate your guys’ time with all this, helping a newbie with not much knowledge on the subject.

For my knowledge, how common is paddle wheel meter vs turbine? Is there a difference in performance? How has my incorrect setting affected the softener performance or has it been detrimental to my system?

Can I go back to C = 40, H = 13, BF = 8?

Sorry, been working 16 hour days since this Covid 19 thing... The turbine is more common but the turbine meter had a manufacturing problem many years ago so a lot of people went to the paddle and simply never wanted to trust the turbine again. The turbine is shorter but the speed of the turbine spinning will cause it to wear out quicker. That being said, I have seen this turbine last over a decade in some fairly high use commercial applications. It would be like complaining that my car tires only lasted 500,000 miles. The paddle meter is even more durable. The turbine does have a tolerance issue and in theory is not serviceable. Here is a quick tutorial I did on how to repair the turbine meter.
Your system will be fine. Just run it through a couple regenerations and all will be well. Your system was not regenerating and the resin was being completely exhausted. Typically no harm will be done to the resin when this occurs.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Exactly! The countdown will now represent the true gallons softened.

With the Turbine setting programmed, the controller was counting 133 meter pulses to equal 1 gallon, but the Paddle Wheel meter only sends 20 pulses per gallon. 6.65 gallons passing through the meter was only counted as 1 gallon by the controller.
Good call on the paddlewheel. I would not have considered that in this case. With Ioiwin wanting to reduce salt usage and lowering capacity, I had assumed that the softener was producing soft water, and he was trying to use less salt.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Loiwin wanted to reduce the Capacity and salt settings only due to unused capacity remaining when 30 days had elapsed and regeneration was being forced by the DO setting. It did not make sense that much if any capacity should be remaining after 30 days of normal use.

Loiwin, when Ditttohead advised to run through a couple regenerations to restore the exhausted resin capacity, those regeneration are to be manually performed one after the other without delaying for capacity to be consumed between each cycle.

As a regular regeneration is configured to use only 12 lbs salt, to restore even more capacity to reduce ongoing hardness leakage, it would be advisable to add an additional 2 gallons water to the brine tank using a bucket prior to each manual regeneration. Waiting about 1 hour after adding the additional water before starting each regeneration will allow sufficient time for additional salt to dissolve.

To restore the total capacity of the 2 ft3 resin would require 40 lbs of salt, but between the 2 manual cycles each using 2 extra gallons, 36 lbs salt will be used which will restore a more than adequate percentage if the total capacity to satisfy your needs.
 
Last edited:

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Loiwin wanted to reduce the Capacity and salt settings only due to unused capacity remaining when 30 days had elapsed and regeneration was being forced by the DO setting. It did not make sense that much if any capacity should be remaining after 30 days of normal use.

When Ditttohead advised to run through a couple regenerations to restore the exhausted resin capacity, those regeneration are to be manually initiated one after the other without delaying for capacity to be consumed between each cycle.

Banner what did you mean in your last paragraph? You guys are recommending I run 2 manual regenerations one after the other in a row? I was planning on running 1 today and seeing how many gallons I have left until next regeneration (if any) next month
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Loiwin wanted to reduce the Capacity and salt settings only due to unused capacity remaining when 30 days had elapsed and regeneration was being forced by the DO setting. It did not make sense that much if any capacity should be remaining after 30 days of normal use.

Loiwin, when Ditttohead advised to run through a couple regenerations to restore the exhausted resin capacity, those regeneration are to be manually performed one after the other without delaying for capacity to be consumed between each cycle.

As a regular regeneration is configured to use only 12 lbs salt, to restore even more capacity to reduce ongoing hardness leakage, it would be advisable to add an additional 2 gallons water to the brine tank using a bucket prior to each manual regeneration. Waiting about 1 hour after adding the additional water before starting each regeneration will allow sufficient time for additional salt to dissolve.

To restore the total capacity of the 2 ft3 resin would require 40 lbs of salt, but between the 2 manual cycles each using 2 extra gallons, 36 lbs salt will be used which will restore a more than adequate percentage if the total capacity to satisfy your needs.

So my softener has been programmed at BF = 8 so the last year, which is the right amount of time for 12 lbs of salt. You’re saying to still add 2 gallons and run 2 manual regenerations back to back?

My softener was still doing regenerations at 30 days regardless of gallon count. So it was essentially still producing softened water using 12 pounds each time. Isn’t the wrong setting of FM just a number on a screen? Wasn’t the softener still doing it’s job every 30 days using 12 lb salt to make C = 40000?

A little confused as to what I’m restoring if every 30 days it’s still regenerating. Please forgive me if I’m not understanding
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
As previously explained, with the incorrect FM setting, for every 6.65 gallons of soft water that flowed through the meter, the controller counted that as only 1 gallon. This is why it seemed there was remaining capacity after 30 days even as your family water usage remained normal.

With the correct FM setting, each 1 gallon flowing through the meter will be counted as 1 gallon.

With each gallon being recognized correctly, I anticipate regeneration will occur before 30 days elapse. The DO setting is the maximum limit if a demand regeneration has not occured within 30 days from the previous regeneration.

You’re saying to still add 2 gallons and run 2 manual regenerations back to back?
Correct. If you do one maybe around dinner time, the 2nd could be started just before you depart for bed.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
A little confused as to what I’m restoring if every 30 days it’s still regenerating.
Your 2 ft3 of resin, has a total capacity of 64,000 grains when produced. Although you will only be using and restoring 40,000 grains capacity each regeneration cycle, the additional capacity from 40K - 64K grains needs to be also available to provide any benefit.

Because the incorrect FM setting will have resulted in much more capacity to be used than will be regenerated with 12 lbs salt, additional salt will now be needed to restore that additional capacity. If you look at the capacity chart previously linked, you will see 40 lbs salt (20 lbs/ft3) is needed to regenerate all 64K grains capacity in 2 ft3 of resin.

With performing 2 manual regenerations back-to-back with an extra 2 gallons, about 60K grains of the total 64K, will be restored, but as your softener was recently regenerated, I anticipate more than 60K will have been restored once the 2nd manual regeneration has concluded.
 
Last edited:
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks