Quick question: BF time when decreasing from 40k to either 36 or 32k grain

Users who are viewing this thread

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Hmmmm. Hehe. So doesn’t matter really?
How did you get that? Did you notice the word "acceptable"? 4 lb/cuft may be acceptable, but he uses 8? I use 7 or 8 -- I forget what I am set for right now.

I would stick with 6 in your case, but you want to save salt. Experiment.

Bannerman, two posts made it thru. So maybe just a partial clog that broke free.
 
Last edited:

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
How did you get that? Did you notice the word "acceptable"? 4 lb/cuft may be acceptable, but he uses 8? I use 7 or 8 -- I forget what I am set for right now.

I would stick with 6 in your case, but you want to save salt. Experiment.

Bannerman, two posts made it thru. So maybe just a partial clog that broke free.

Sorry a little confused by this comment. General question, is it bad to have a lot of softened water left, let’s say 1000 gallons, when it regenerates after 30 days?

Is it more efficient/soft if I go with 340000 or 36000 grains with a BF = 6?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Sorry a little confused by this comment. General question, is it bad to have a lot of softened water left, let’s say 1000 gallons, when it regenerates after 30 days?

Not to me, but if you think differently, that's OK. And if you changed DO to 40, I expect nothing bad would happen. But I am not sure. You seem obsessive. You can turn that into something constructive. Try a setting for a few months. Keep records. Try a different set of setings for a few months, and record the results and perceptions. You will learn, and you can share.

Is it more efficient/soft if I go with 340000 or 36000 grains with a BF = 6?
36000 34000 would regenerate a little sooner.
 
Last edited:

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Not to me, but if you think differently, that's OK. And if you changed DO to 40, I expect nothing bad would happen. But I am not sure. You seem obsessive. You can turn that into something constructive. Try a setting for a few months. Keep records. Try a different set of setings for a few months, and record the results and perceptions. You will learn, and you can share.


36000 would regenerate a little sooner.


Reach, I truly appreciate all you guys help, I wouldn’t have gotten this far if it wasn’t for you guys!

I just wanted to know the best specs to use so I get the most efficient salt use yet great softening. So curious if 34000 or 36000 grains would be better with BF = 6. Above, wouldn’t 34000 grains regenerate faster than 36000 grains?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
I just wanted to know the best specs to use so I get the most efficient salt use yet great softening.
6 to 8 lb/cuft, but different people can have different opinions on what constitutes great softening.


Above, wouldn’t 34000 grains regenerate faster than 36000 grains?
Yes. I said that backwards.
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
6 to 8 lb/cuft, but different people can have different opinions on what constitutes great softening.



Yes. I said that backwards.

Is there a reason 4.5/cu ft is not efficient?

Also, is it bad to waste a lot of softened water with each generation?
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Is there a reason 4.5/cu ft is not efficient?
In terms of efficiency, 36,000 grains / 9 lbs (4.5/ft3) = 4000 grains/lb. This is more salt efficient than the initial setting of 40,000 grains / 12 lbs = 3,333 gr/lb.

In comparing the description at the bottom of the resin capacity chart for each salt setting, you will see that as salt efficiency increases, hardness leakage will also increase so the resulting water quality will be lower.

You made a decision to obtain a 2 ft3 softener based on 15 gpg hardness, and your 4 person family currently utilizing 35 gallons each per day with an expectation that water use would increase. It now seems your municipal water has less than 15 gpg hardness, and your family is using far less than 35 gallons water per day so the regenerated capacity is not being used even within a 30 day period. If accurate information had been specified initially, a 1.5 ft3 softener would have been recommended.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
is it bad to waste a lot of softened water with each generation?
Any remaining unused capacity is not soft water being wasted, but is the resin's capacity to soften that quantity of water.
When there is capacity remaining when regeneration occurs, that unused capacity will be regenerated again needlessly, thereby utilizing more salt than is necessary.
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Any remaining unused capacity is not soft water being wasted, but is the resin's capacity to soften that quantity of water.
When there is capacity remaining when regeneration occurs, that unused capacity will be regenerated again needlessly, thereby utilizing more salt than is necessary.

Bannerman, thanks for the great info, you’ve cleared some things up for me. Quick question on salt efficiency please....

If doing 36000 grains with BF = 6 (4000 grains/lb) is not soft enough for us, should I increase the BF = 7, or keep the BF = 6 and decrease the grains to 34000? Will 4000/lb have hard water leakage? Is it toooo salt efficient?

Can someone explain the bottom of the chart, what is hardness efficiency and hardness leakage (how do you calculate ppm)?
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
what is hardness efficiency
This is equal to salt efficiency as specified in post #27. Hardness Reduction Efficiency = Regenerated Capacity divided by the pounds of salt needed to regenerate that capacity.
Ex: Because 12 lbs salt will be needed to regenerate 40,000 grains capacity in a 2 ft3 softener, then 40,000 / 12 = 3,333 grains per pound hardness reduction efficiency.

Hardness leakage is when the softener resin does not remove 100% of hardness and so some hardness passes through the softener. The ppm leakage amounts specified in the chart, will not occur immediately upon using those salt settings, but will build-up to those amounts after numerous regeneration cycles. As hardness leakage increases, the quality of the softened water decreases.

Although grains per gallon is the common hardness measurement when working with a softener, ppm or mg/L are smaller values usually measured and specified by testing labs. 17.1 ppm or 17.1 mg/L = 1 grain per gallon. While water with 10 ppm hardness will be soft, it will be slightly harder than water with 6 ppm hardness.

Water treatment typically involves compromise. An 8 lb/ft3 salt setting will usually offer the most acceptable balance of salt efficiency, capacity and water quality. When a user wants even higher salt efficiency, then 6 lbs/ft3 is usually recommended, but that will come with the penalty of lower quality water and more frequent regeneration due to a lower Capacity setting. Even lower salt settings will further increase efficiency, but regeneration will be more frequent and the water quality may be lower than desired.

For your family to use an 8 lb/ft3 setting instead of 6 lbs/ft3, will further increase your 2 ft3 softener's available capacity beyond your family usage within 30 days. While the water quality will be higher, salt efficiency will be much lower than usual because a greater amount of unused capacity will be wasted (re-regenerated) every 30 days. A smaller capacity softener would have been better suited for your hardness level and water usage.

Depending on the amount of unused capacity remaining at 30 days, it may be worthwhile to not worry about wasted capacity so your family has use of the water quality provided by your chosen initial 6 lb/ft3 setting.
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
This is equal to salt efficiency as specified in post #27. Hardness Reduction Efficiency = Regenerated Capacity divided by the pounds of salt needed to regenerate that capacity.
Ex: Because 12 lbs salt will be needed to regenerate 40,000 grains capacity in a 2 ft3 softener, then 40,000 / 12 = 3,333 grains per pound hardness reduction efficiency.

Hardness leakage is when the softener resin does not remove 100% of hardness and so some hardness passes through the softener. The ppm leakage amounts specified in the chart, will not occur immediately upon using those salt settings, but will build-up to those amounts after numerous regeneration cycles. As hardness leakage increases, the quality of the softened water decreases.

Although grains per gallon is the common hardness measurement when working with a softener, ppm or mg/L are smaller values usually measured and specified by testing labs. 17.1 ppm or 17.1 mg/L = 1 grain per gallon. While water with 10 ppm hardness will be soft, it will be slightly harder than water with 6 ppm hardness.

Water treatment typically involves compromise. An 8 lb/ft3 salt setting will usually offer the most acceptable balance of salt efficiency, capacity and water quality. When a user wants even higher salt efficiency, then 6 lbs/ft3 is usually recommended, but that will come with the penalty of lower quality water and more frequent regeneration due to a lower Capacity setting. Even lower salt settings will further increase efficiency, but regeneration will be more frequent and the water quality may be lower than desired.

For your family to use an 8 lb/ft3 setting instead of 6 lbs/ft3, will further increase your 2 ft3 softener's available capacity beyond your family usage within 30 days. While the water quality will be higher, salt efficiency will be much lower than usual because a greater amount of unused capacity will be wasted (re-regenerated) every 30 days. A smaller capacity softener would have been better suited for your hardness level and water usage.

Depending on the amount of unused capacity remaining at 30 days, it may be worthwhile to not worry about wasted capacity so your family has use of the water quality provided by your chosen initial 6 lb/ft3 setting.

Bannerman, I appreciate you taking the time to explain this. It makes a lot more sense now. If I want to lower the amount of softened water, but maintain quality and salt efficiency, do you recommend I keep my grains at 40000 and let’s say, increase my water hardness from 13 to 15 or 16?

Or should I decrease the grains to 34000 or 36000 but increase my BF = 7? What happens if I choose 36000 grains but do a higher BF = 7?

Sorry, I’m looking for a concrete answer so I’m not making any mistakes
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Sorry, I’m looking for a concrete answer so I’m not making any mistakes
Could you distill that to a concrete question that does not call for for a feeling, such as better, as an answer? I keep thinking that you are getting to something, but it seems I can't understand what that is.

"What happens if I choose 36000 grains but do a higher BF = 7?" sounds like a concrete question, but I think that the answer to that question won't resolve things for you. For one, I suspect you pretty much know the answer to what happens if you use C=36000 and BF=7 vs some higher C.

The numbers H and C and RC are used in a calculation at 2 am each night. If the (gallons used so far) are > ((C/H)-RC), then the softener regenerates. That is all that the H and C settings are used for.
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Could you distill that to a concrete question that does not call for for a feeling, such as better, as an answer? I keep thinking that you are getting to something, but it seems I can't understand what that is.

"What happens if I choose 36000 grains but do a higher BF = 7?" sounds like a concrete question, but I think that the answer to that question won't resolve things for you. For one, I suspect you pretty much know the answer to what happens if you use C=36000 and BF=7 vs some higher C.

The numbers H and C and RC are used in a calculation at 2 am each night. If the (gallons used so far) are > ((C/H)-RC), then the softener regenerates. That is all that the H and C settings are used for.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is if I choose let’s say 36000 but keep my BF = 8, will that make my water softer while decreasing the # gallons that show up after a regeneration, or does it simply just decrease the time between regenerations? Does lowering C but keeping BF time the same at 8 actually do anything to the quality/efficiency of water? BF = 8 is what’s is important here, correct? Just trying to understand the process, thanks again
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
I guess what I’m trying to get at is if I choose let’s say 36000 but keep my BF = 8, will that make my water softer while decreasing the # gallons that show up after a regeneration, or does it simply just decrease the time between regenerations?
Decreases the time, unless the DO setting still rules.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-a-water-softener-is-working-correctly.46268/ #5


index.php

With lower salt levels, there will be more hardness leakage. For any amount of salt use, the hardness will increase as you put more gallons through. The hardness handling is not a sharp cutoff. If you wait longer to regen, the hardness before regen will be higher.

https://www.cwwltd.com/content/pdf/Purolite-C100-Operating-Data.pdf has similar graphs and more. For example, TDS correction. To keep the calculations easier, some amount of various compensations is built in to the capacity numbers. If you build in more or less compensation, that will affect the numbers you use when you prepare a table. When an unusual level of TDS or higher hardness are present, additional compensation is called for.

Best for your water is to try a setting. If the hardness is too high at the end, take a step to cause regeneration to happen earlier. But that Purolite document should help you with some of the considerations.
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Decreases the time, unless the DO setting still rules.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-a-water-softener-is-working-correctly.46268/ #5


index.php

With lower salt levels, there will be more hardness leakage. For any amount of salt use, the hardness will increase as you put more gallons through. The hardness handling is not a sharp cutoff. If you wait longer to regen, the hardness before regen will be higher.

https://www.cwwltd.com/content/pdf/Purolite-C100-Operating-Data.pdf has similar graphs and more. For example, TDS correction. To keep the calculations easier, some amount of various compensations is built in to the capacity numbers. If you build in more or less compensation, that will affect the numbers you use when you prepare a table. When an unusual level of TDS or higher hardness are present, additional compensation is called for.

Best for your water is to try a setting. If the hardness is too high at the end, take a step to cause regeneration to happen earlier. But that Purolite document should help you with some of the considerations.

Thanks. So no matter what the C I put, the BF is what makes the water softer? The C just contributes to how fast the softener will regenerate, but the BF is what actually makes the water soft?

So if I want to keep my quality/efficiency at 6 lb/ft, but want to lower the gallons til regen, should I lower the C or leave the C = 40000 and increase the H?
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
If you increase the BF setting higher than needed to regenerate the programmed Capacity, then you will be consuming additional salt which will have the ability to reduce hardness leakage through the resin bed.

Even with the initially recommended settings of 12 lbs salt to regenerate 40K capacity, because there is unused capacity remaining when regeneration occurs, the unused capacity will not be consuming brine capacity so this will be equivalent to a higher salt setting regardless.

You have still not stated how many gallons capacity was remaining when regeneration occured at 30 days previously nor do we know the actual hardness of your water. If your water usage is only marginally less than 140 gallons/day (35 gallons X 4 ppl), then there likely isn't a significant amount of capacity remaining. I suggest you reprogram the originally recommended settings and not worry about the remaining unused capacity.
 
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Thanks. So no matter what the C I put, the BF is what makes the water softer? The C just contributes to how fast the softener will regenerate, but the BF is what actually makes the water soft?

So if I want to keep my quality/efficiency at 6 lb/ft, but want to lower the gallons til regen, should I lower the C or leave the C = 40000 and increase the H?
Yes. I agree with those. However if the water was still soft enough for you when the softener regenerated, then letting the DO sometimes trigger the regen is perfectly fine.
 

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
Thank you all. I will put my setting back to 40000 and increase my hardness a little bit. If I’m resetting the settings, does this restart manual override 30 days or should I just run a manual regen 1st if the month?
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
If I’m resetting the settings, does this restart manual override 30 days
Most times when a setting change is made, a manual regeneration is usually immediately performed so the new settings will be used fresh for the entire tank instead of for only the remaining capacity. Suggest making the setting change to see what will happen if you don't perform a manual regeneration.

If you are increasing the BF setting from that used for the previous regeneration cycle, then some additional water will need to be manually added to the brine tank so there will be sufficient brine prepared to regenerate all of the capacity that was consumed. Each 1 minute of additional BF time equates to 0.5 gallons needing to be added.
 
Last edited:

Loiwin

Member
Messages
114
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
AZ
So hypothetically speaking, how would one increase quality of water while at the same time reducing # gallons softened for 2 cuft softener?
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks