Question re new water softener install

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Krakhauer

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Good morning,

I had a new water softener installed in our 3,000 sq/ft house a little over a month ago. We have a private well and septic system. There are just two adults living in the house. No pets. Sometimes we have the occasional visitors but a majority of the time, water use is just for two adults. The water was tested by the installer and it was right about 10 GPG hardness.

The water softener is a 32,000 grain system with a Clack WS1/1.25. The control panel has 5 buttons: Set Clock - Next - Up - Down - Regen. The cycles are Backwash, Brine DN, Backwash 2, Rinse, Fill, and Service

The install went fine and all seemed well and good. He added 150lbs of solar crystals into the brine tank. Here are the settings:

Next + Up

Hardness = NA
Regen Day = 14
REgen Time: 2:00am

Next + Down

Capacity = 24 x 1,000
Regen lbs = 9.5
Backwash = Normal
Regen Gal = 1,400
Fill = Post
Gren Brine = DN
Regen = Normal

It usually takes us about 11 or 12 day to use 1,400 gallons of water, which trigger the Regen process. I watched the system do the 2nd Regen process, which happened about 12 days ago, and it didn't seem like any of the brine solution was sucked into the softener (although by the time I started watching it, it was about 20 minutes into the Brine DN cycle). When the system got to the 6 minute Fill cycle, it filled up the salt tank until the safety float engaged and stopped the fill with about 3 minutes remaining in the cycle. I was little confused by this, so I called the installer the next business day. He came out, was there for probably 10 minutes. He took the injector out of the softener (white piece with small hole in it - he gave some type of explanation for why it sometimes should be removed) and said the system was running fine. I ran a manual Regen cycle after he left and no salt water was sucked out of the brine tank. When it got to the Fill Cycle, no water was put back into the tank because it was full.

At this point I became concerned that the install had no idea what he was doing, so I called another water service company and they came out two days later. They immediately put the injector back in the system and tried to test the system - no water was flowing when the Regen started. They ended up removing a piece from the drain line that connects to the softener, and ran a backwash, which worked. They stopped that and put the piece they removed back in, ran another backwash, and that worked fine too. Long story short, they ended up getting the water flowing back for the Regen process. They also took the valve apart to inspect the pistons and stack (I think that's what they are called), and said everything looked good. They also disconnected the hose going to the brine tank and checked for suction, which there was. He also said the check valve looked good.

They ran the Regen process and this time once it got to the Brine dn cycle, it clearly was sucking salt water into the softener. Installer says it's working fine and leaves. After he leaves, I notice the system stopped sucking in salt water into the softener about 15 minutes into the 60 minute cycle. The remaining 40 minutes or I still hear the water flowing, which is normal for that cycle, but no more salt solution got drawn out.

At this point I'm totally confused as to if this thing is working correctly. The salt level has definitely gone down since the system was installed in late April (it's probably been through 4-5 Regen cycles (2 normally with us and another 2-3 test cycles). My guess is maybe 40 lbs of salt has been used - which maybe means it is working correctly if each Regen cycle is using 9.5 lbs or salt?. The system appears to drain fine during all the settings, so I don't see an issue with the drain line.

My understanding for water softeners was that ALL the salt water from the brine tank should be sucked out during that 60 minute Brine dn cycle, no matter how much salt water is in there. So if it's full, then all of the solution should be sucked out of my tank right? If all the water were sucked out, then when the system got to the 6 minute fill, it would fill the tank up approximately halfway. Regardless, the way my system is operating now, it appears that it will always fill the tank with more water than is sucked out, so I'll always have a tank that fills up until the safety float engages and stops the fill. Maybe this is normal?

I guess my questions for this group are:

1. Are my settings set correctly?
2. Should the system suck all of the salt water out of the tank even if it's full?
3. Should the Fill Cycle be 6 minutes long? If not, how do I change that setting?

I don't have the know-how to take the system apart, so please keep that in mind. I suppose I will just call another water guy if I have to although I am really hoping to avoid that. The remaining gallon capacity is 500, so the system should regenerate by Monday morning. If nothing else, I can always run another Regen cycle this weekend and let you guy know how that goes.

Thanks in advance. :)
 

Reach4

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They ran the Regen process and this time once it got to the Brine dn cycle, it clearly was sucking salt water into the softener. Installer says it's working fine and leaves. After he leaves, I notice the system stopped sucking in salt water into the softener about 15 minutes into the 60 minute cycle. The remaining 40 minutes or I still hear the water flowing, which is normal for that cycle, but no more salt solution got drawn out.1. Are my settings set correctly?
Totally normal. During that cycle, the brine gets sucked down until the brine has fallen to about the middle of the air check valve (thing at the bottom of the brine well). At that point, a ball falls and stops the flow so air does not get sucked in. The remainder of the cycle makes up the slow rinse. During that time the water slowly flows (laminar flow) thru the resin and rinses out the salt.

2. Should the system suck all of the salt water out of the tank even if it's full?
3. Should the Fill Cycle be 6 minutes long? If not, how do I change that setting?

I don't have the know-how to take the system apart, so please keep that in mind. I suppose I will just call another water guy if I have to although I am really hoping to avoid that. The remaining gallon capacity is 500, so the system should regenerate by Monday morning. If nothing else, I can always run another Regen cycle this weekend and let you guy know how that goes.

Thanks in advance. :)
#2, yes.
#1 and #3 would need study of the Clack WS1 programming. So in that programming, you could have a setting for the brine fill time, or the control may compute the time based on how much salt you want to be used and the brine line flow control (BLFC) that is used.
 

Krakhauer

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Totally normal. During that cycle, the brine gets sucked down until the brine has fallen to about the middle of the air check valve (thing at the bottom of the brine well). At that point, a ball falls and stops the flow so air does not get sucked in. The remainder of the cycle makes up the slow rinse. During that time the water slowly flows (laminar flow) thru the resin and rinses out the salt.


#2, yes.
#1 and #3 would need study of the Clack WS1 programming. So in that programming, you could have a setting for the brine fill time, or the control may compute the time based on how much salt you want to be used and the brine line flow control (BLFC) that is used.

Thanks for the reply. It sound have clarified a little better in my first post, but the last time the system regenerated, the salt tank was full of water and after the 60 minute Brine DN cycle, the salt water level in the tank only went down about 5-6 inches. It did not come close to emptying the tank, and certainly the water level did not get anywhere near the bottom where it would have engaged the check valve.

Like I said, the tank was full and it only sucked out salt water for maybe 12-15 minutes, which lowered the level 5 or 6 inches.

It sounds like my brand new water softener is clearly malfunctioning and after having 2 "professionals" looks at it after the initial install, I am no where closer to getting it fixed. I just don't understand why it doesn't suck out all the water. The drain line is fine, as water drains perfectly during all the cycles. The system clearly has suction for at least the first 12-15 minutes. I have no idea why it would just decide to stop sucking out salt water when the water level is still at least 12" or more above where the check valve is.

Any other thoughts/suggestions?
 

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Not sucking out the brine can be due to a suction leak, or a clogged injector or injector screen. But that would not explain sucking for 12-15 minutes and then suck no lower.

Could it be that your check valve is not located at the bottom of the brine tank? You do say "at least 12" or more above where the check valve is". Hmm.
 

Krakhauer

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Not sucking out the brine can be due to a suction leak, or a clogged injector or injector screen. But that would not explain sucking for 12-15 minutes and then suck no lower.

Could it be that your check valve is not located at the bottom of the brine tank? You do say "at least 12" or more above where the check valve is". Hmm.

They took everything apart and nothing was clogged. It's brand new. At this point I'm just besides myself for spending $2,000+ on a piece of a equipment and after shelling out more money for people to come to my house to fix it, I am no better off. Completely deflating experience. Makes me just want to disconnect the thing and get rid of it. It's absolutely insane to me that it's apparently not working properly.

I don't know what exactly the check valve is or what it looks like, but I assume it's located at the bottom of that long piece that is in the brine well, which is separated from the brine tank. The guy took that entire long piece out after disconnecting the hose that goes from softener to the top of the safety float. he blew air through it and felt air come out the bottom where I assume it sucks the salt water in.

If that tank was empty and full of salt each time it regenerated, and it filled up with water for 6 minutes.... wouldn't it use way more than 9.5 lbs of salt each time?

Could there just be a catastrophic issue with the actual valve of the softener that controls sucking the water in?
 

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The amount of water per minute of brine fill depends on the BLFC. A 0.5 gpm DLFC would add 3 gallons of water in 6 minutes. That would use 9 lbs of salt, which is a little heavy. A 0.25 gpm BLFC would cause you to use only 4.5 lbs of salt, which is leaner than most people would want.

If it never worked, I guess it could be any number of things. Somebody who knows Clack valves may check in.

Does the seller recognize that it is not working properly?
 

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The amount of water per minute of brine fill depends on the BLFC. A 0.5 gpm DLFC would add 3 gallons of water in 6 minutes. That would use 9 lbs of salt, which is a little heavy. A 0.25 gpm BLFC would cause you to use only 4.5 lbs of salt, which is leaner than most people would want.

If it never worked, I guess it could be any number of things. Somebody who knows Clack valves may check in.

Does the seller recognize that it is not working properly?
No seller said it's working fine. I am feel like I cannot reasonably discuss it with them at this point.

I guess what I don't understand is that the system has definitely been using salt, as the salt level has decreased by about 40-50lbs. I just don't understand why it isn't sucking all the water out of the brine tank if it's close to full or actually full (full being at the safety float). I suppose I could run a regen, skip all the cycles and go right to the fill, disconnect the hose, and let it pour water into a 5 gallon bucket for 6 minutes to see how much water it puts in?

Alternatively, I could lower the salt lbs number... You said 9.5 is too much, which 4.5 is too little. Is there a universally agreed on number?

Lastly, does my hardness setting being set to NA have anything to do with this? I know the number is 10, but why it says NA is anyones guess. I'm assuming the rest of the settings I listed are fine?
 

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8 is very good softening. 6 is good and uses less salt. Some use less than that to save even more salt.

Get a Hach 5-B hardness test. Check hardness a day after regen and a day before you would expect the unit to regen.

He took the injector out of the softener (white piece with small hole in it - he gave some type of explanation for why it sometimes should be removed) and said the system was running fine. He was presumably checking the injector and put it back in. The injector is the little venture pump that draws the brine.

How is your softening?
 

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8 is very good softening. 6 is good and uses less salt. Some use less than that to save even more salt.

Get a Hach 5-B hardness test. Check hardness a day after regen and a day before you would expect the unit to regen.

He took the injector out of the softener (white piece with small hole in it - he gave some type of explanation for why it sometimes should be removed) and said the system was running fine. He was presumably checking the injector and put it back in. The injector is the little venture pump that draws the brine.

How is your softening?
The first guy, the original installer, took that injector out and left it out. He screwed that black top back on and said the injector on some of these valves restricts the flow. He started a regen cycle and left. I was pretty sure he at that point he had no idea what he was talking about, so I didn't waste my time calling him back. It's pointless to get into an argument with someone like that. They have my money and that's it. The system did not suck an salt water in during that regen cycle.

The second guy came and immediately put the injector back in. He's the guy that took various things apart, checked the piston, checked the check valve, checked to make sure there was suction during the brine draw cycle. He started a regen cycle, the system started sucking salt water in, so he left. The salt water level dropped maybe 5-6", give or take. But after about 20 minutes or so it clearly stopped sucking water in. The water level didn't go down any more. And when the fill cycle started, it just filled the tank up again until the safety float engaged.

I'm just totally miffed why it would start sucking water in, but then for whatever reason just stop after 15-20 mins. I tried mixing the start around to make sure there was no salt bridge. At this point, the system was less than a month old, probably 3 weeks.

I'm just really besides myself. If this thing is supposed to suck all the water out of the brine tank until it hits the check vale, which is like 3 inches or so from the bottom, then something is clearly wrong with my system.

I thought about going to home depot tomorrow, buying 3 bags of salt, then going home and emptying my tank completely, get rid of all the salt and water and start over again one more time. If it I do this, how much water should I initially put in the brine tank with the new salt (my system is set to Post Fill, so I'll need to fill the tank manually the first time)??? I know it has to absorb before for at least 2 hours before I run a regeneration.

Water was tested by the second guy, and he said it was soft.
 

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The only thing that I can imagine that matches your symptoms is the air check valve is set high -- does not go 3 inches from the bottom of the tank. I the check valve was 3 inches above the bottom, I would expect the salt to suck down to about 5 inches from the bottom. Use a dipstick to measure during the latter part of the brine draw cycle.
index.php


How do you perceive the softness to be?

One non-intuitive thing: the liquid level in the brine tube is higher than the liquid level in the salt.
 
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Krakhauer

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The only thing that I can imagine that matches your symptoms is the air check valve is set high -- does not go 3 inches from the bottom of the tank. I the check valve was 3 inches above the bottom, I would expect the salt to suck down to about 5 inches from the bottom. Use a dipstick to measure during the latter part of the brine draw cycle.
index.php


How do you perceive the softness to be?

One non-intuitive thing: the liquid level in the brine tube is higher than the liquid level in the salt.
Thank you for your reply. I will take measurements today and let you know exactly how high the water level is in the salt bed (vs the brine well, which you are correct, is about 3" higher.

My check valve looks nearly identical to this image you posted, and it is fixed to the long rod that goes into the brine well, with the safety float at the top. I took it out and turned it upside down and you can hear the ball inside of it roll back and forth. I would have to assume that when it is submerged, that ball in fact floats and also water to be sucked in.

The water level right in the salt bed sits about about in the middle of the brine tank barrel, which is no where near where the check valve should be. It would actually be higher but I stopped the last fill cycle 12 days ago so it wouldn't fill it any higher.

Today I am going to remove all the old salt and remove all the water. Then I'll run the Fill Cycle (it's a 6 minute cycle) and see how much water it puts into the tank without any salt in it. It should put in about 3 gallons right? Assuming it puts in 3 gallons, I will add in new salt and let that absorb for a couple hours. I'll make sure that after those few hours the salt level is slightly above the water line. Then I'll run a new Regen Cycle and see if it drains salt tank to the level of the check valve.

I'll leave all the settings from my first post the same right now. Should the hardness setting have the number 10 set, instead of NA? Would changing just that setting cause the system to act any differently. Doing my own calculations, doing a regeneration after 1,400 gallons for our hardness of 10 GPG should be more than adequate.

The water continues to feel soft and my girlfriend hasn't complained of it causing her blonde hair to change colors. When we first moved here 2 years, and there was no water softener, she could immediately see her hair color start to change. Also, the last water guy that was here 12 days ago tested the water and said it was soft.

Thanks!
 
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Removing all of the salt is a lot of work. How about identifying how far from the bottom that your check valve actually is. You may be able to disconnect the hose and lift the float valve assembly out. Or maybe you could make an L-shaped dipstick and probe depth of the bottom of the check valve with that.

Also, tell us about your brine tank. Round, squarish, diameter/perimeter/whatever. If it is tapered, try to get the dimension at around the brine level or a few inches below. The purpose is to estimate how far down the brine would be expected to draw down during brine draw.
 

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Removing all of the salt is a lot of work. How about identifying how far from the bottom that your check valve actually is. You may be able to disconnect the hose and lift the float valve assembly out. Or maybe you could make an L-shaped dipstick and probe depth of the bottom of the check valve with that.

Also, tell us about your brine tank. Round, squarish, diameter/perimeter/whatever. If it is tapered, try to get the dimension at around the brine level or a few inches below. The purpose is to estimate how far down the brine would be expected to draw down during brine draw.
I removed all the salt and water. The water salt water in the tank was essentially brown in color.

The brine tank is black and a cylinder shape. It's approximately 52" in diameter and 31" in height. There is a white plastic piece that sits on the bottom of the tank, essentially creating a raised surface that is about 5" above the bottom of the brine barrel. There are 4 cylinder shape cutouts in this piece that would allow salt in those areas to sit in that 5" zone. The check valve piece that's in the brine well tube definitely sits below the white plastic piece in the main tank.

I ran a Fill Cycle which went for 6 minutes and 11 seconds (I left the Brine lbs setting at 9.5). It filled the barrel up about 5" in water, which I'm guessing was right about 3 gallons. So right now the water level is at that white plastic surface that sits 5" above the bottom of the barrel. If I were to put new brand new salt in the tank right now, the only salt that would be touching water would be the salt that filled into those four 5" cylinders cutouts.

I ran a Brine DN Cycle to try to draw the water out and it didn't seem like anything was being sucked out. The check valve piece did not appear to be 100% submerged, so I ran a 2nd Fill cycle. At this point I now had approximately 6 gallons in brine barrel (no salt added). The check valve piece was definitely 100% submerged. I ran a Brine DN cycle and it seemed like a small amount of water got sucked out for maybe a few minutes. But after 10 minutes the water level was sitting at the same spot.

I ran a 3rd Fill cycle and let that go for about 3 minutes before I turned it off. At this point, the water level is about 6" above the plastic white piece at the bottom of the barrel. The check valve is still totally submerged. I'm guessing this would mean there's about 11" of water total in the whole barrel. I started a 3rd Brine DN cycle (no salt added) and it does not appear that any water is being sucked in. I'm going to let it run for the full 60 minutes but my understanding is it should be sucking out water until that water line hits the check valve. So it should suck out at least 5" of water or so. Water is definitely going through the softener as you can hear water going out the drain line (not at the same high pressure that water drains out during both backwash cycles and the rinse cycle).

I really have no idea what's wrong with this thing. The check valve should still function correctly even if salt water isn't being used right?
 
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Reach4

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Check valve functions fine if sucking water instead of brine.

Plastic at the bottom is called a salt grid.

I am pretty sure the bottom of the air check valve should below the salt grid top by having the brine well and air check into a cutout.
salt-grids.png

52" in diameter sounds incredibly large. Did you maybe mean circumference?

Not drawing brine is a different symptom, and would cause the softener to not soften well. It can be caused by a clogged injector, injector screen, a hole preventing a good vacuum from forming but not big enough to spew water during brine fill. So anyway, the symptom is not drawing brine, right? Not even drawing brine during the first 15 minutes.
 
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Krakhauer

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Check valve functions fine if sucking water instead of brine.

Plastic at the bottom is called a salt grid.

I am pretty sure the bottom of the air check valve should below the salt grid top by having the brine well and air check into a cutout.
salt-grids.png

52" in diameter sounds incredibly large. Did you maybe mean circumference?

Not drawing brine is a different symptom, and would cause the softener to not soften well. It can be caused by a clogged injector, injector screen, a hole preventing a good vacuum from forming but not big enough to spew water during brine fill. So anyway, the symptom is not drawing brine, right? Not even drawing brine during the first 15 minutes.
Yes, you are correct, the bottom of my check valve piece sits below the top of the salt grid, in the brine well cutout.

The barrel is 52" circumference, 15" diameter.

The system is barely a month old, installed at the end of April. The injector was checked 2 weeks ago and it was not clogged. Looked brand new. There doesn't appear to be any air leaks - I have pulled the red pins and disconnected both ends of the hose that goes from softener to the brine tank and there is a good hiss and pop sound from the vacuum being broken. I have firmly pushed both back into place and reinserted the red pins.

I don't really have enough expertise to do anything other than what I have already done. Right now the system has run 4 Fill cycles so there's about 12 gallons of fresh water sitting in the brine tank. No water has been sucked out during the Brine Draw cycles. During the backwash and rinse cycles, there is high pressure of water going out the drain line. During the Brine Draw cycle, water does drain out the drain line at a lower pressure, so I assume the drain line is not a problem. I'm totally out of ideas :(
 
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Reach4

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In post #1 you said "They ran the Regen process and this time once it got to the Brine dn cycle, it clearly was sucking salt water into the softener. Installer says it's working fine and leaves. After he leaves, I notice the system stopped sucking in salt water into the softener about 15 minutes into the 60 minute cycle. The remaining 40 minutes or I still hear the water flowing, which is normal for that cycle, but no more salt solution got drawn out."

Now you are saying that brine (or water for testing) is not being drawn out at all.

Maybe contact Clack and tell them the installer cannot get it working, but claims it is working.
 

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In post #1 you said "They ran the Regen process and this time once it got to the Brine dn cycle, it clearly was sucking salt water into the softener. Installer says it's working fine and leaves. After he leaves, I notice the system stopped sucking in salt water into the softener about 15 minutes into the 60 minute cycle. The remaining 40 minutes or I still hear the water flowing, which is normal for that cycle, but no more salt solution got drawn out."

Now you are saying that brine (or water for testing) is not being drawn out at all.

Maybe contact Clack and tell them the installer cannot get it working, but claims it is working.

Correct. The last time the brine tank had salt in it and the regen process ran was about 2 weeks ago, and it sucked out about 3" of water - the level was still way about the check valve.

Today I emptied the tank of all the salt and brown salt water (no idea why the water turned brown since it was just fresh water sitting in the brine tank with the salt crystals (East Coast Solar Salt Crystals). I filled it up with 3 gallons of fresh water (no salt) and tried the Brine Draw cycle - nothing happened. The check valve was not completely submerged with just 3 gallons in it. Filled it up with 3 more gallons and ran the Brine Draw cycle - I could hear some different noise coming from the brine well that lasted for about 5 minutes (same noise that I heard last time it did suck salt water 2 weeks ago for about 12 minutes) but then it stopped. The water level did not go down a noticeable amount in those 5 minutes. The check valve was still completely submerged. I stopped that cycle after about 11 minutes as the water level wasn't moving at all. Filled it up with another 3 gallons and ran a Brine Draw cycle - no noise and the water level didn't go down. Did a 4th fill cycle and ran the brine draw - nothing. :(

I am waiting on a call back from the owner of the second company I used.

By any chance, are these systems "smart" in the sense it won't suck in water/brine if it detects the resin can still produce soft water??? Or am I correct that once the Brine Draw cycle starts, it's supposed to suck water out until the level reaches the check valve - which in my case could leave about 3 gallons always in the bottom of the brine tank when it's operating normally. Some people I have spoken to say the water level in the brine tank can vary, but I just don't understand that.... Regardless of how much salt is in that tank (or it's empty and full of water for testing purposes), it should ALWAYS draw the water level down to the check valve, correct? Is there any normal system function that would change that?

I actually did call Clack last week. They put me on the phone with one of their "technicians" but he could not offer much help. He said there are so many different variations of softeners, many of them proprietary to various distributors. He told me to contact the distributor where the first install obtained the unit from. I have no idea who that may be and I only really want to deal with the first installer if it comes down to having to buy a brand new system and I need to request a refund from them (which they probably won't do since they have my money already - ugh).
 
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Reach4

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I would put enough water in to put the water level over the air check valve, and see if the system draws water then.
 

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I would put enough water in to put the water level over the air check valve, and see if the system draws water then.
There is about 12 gallons of fresh water in the brine tank right now, more than enough to completely submerge the check valve. No water is sucked out during the brine draw cycle...
 

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I would put enough water in to put the water level over the air check valve, and see if the system draws water then.

Just an update... I spoke to the owner of the 2nd company (not the original installer). He was able to find out where the first guy bought the system and they are replacing the entire valve head/assembly under warranty on Tuesday. He thinks the valve is defective and that's why it isn't drawing any water from the brine tank.

So, at least I effectively cut out the first guy. Mission accomplished there.

And if for whatever reason it still isn't drawing water after the new valve goes on, then a whole bunch of possibilities are eliminated since it's a brand new valve.

Will let you guys know what happens. In two days. Wish me luck.
 
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