Pumps intermittently pumps air

[lmidgitd]

Hello,

I have a 3/4hp flotech jet pump (Menards) that uses one pipe in a shallow well configuration. I have no history on my well, but the dnr website indicates that all the wells in my area are drilled 60-70ft deep.

My issue is sometimes during the pumping cycles, the pump will act like it is pumping air for a few seconds. The pressure gauge on the pump will drop to around 15psi during this time. This introduced air into the house plumbing of course, which is annoying.

My thought is that the foot valve had gone bad, but if that was the case why would I draw air during the middle of a pumping cycle instead of just losing prime each time the pump turns on?

I have a previous thread that I was able to get some information, but since I couldn't find additional answers, it makes me very nervous to remove the well cap since I don't want the pipe to fall in case I'm mistaken as to the well construction.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-remove-well-cap.72776/

Disclaimer: I've called local well companies but none are able to work on a surface jet pump since regulation dictates that wells must be submersible now. Money is too tight to drill a new well at the moment.

 

[Reach4]

My thought is that the foot valve had gone bad, but if that was the case why would I draw air during the middle of a pumping cycle instead of just losing prime each time the pump turns on?

Drawing air would happen if the water level dropped down to the foot valve. Can you put the foot valve a little lower?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[lmidgitd]

That's a great question. I'm afraid of opening the well cap because the cap is not like any that the local well companies have seen. I'm assuming that the center nut attaches to an interior pipe, but I'm not sure. The pump runs great after a couple hiccups with the first minute of running, so I don't think the water line is falling below the valve. However you guys know more than I do, and at this point I'm speculating.

 

[Reach4]

Post a photo of what you can see at the well. Is this a year-round water supply?

Besides coming in at the foot valve, the other way air can come in is at joints.

You can slather joints with shaving cream, and see if any suck in due to a vacuum leak. Include the joints near the pump.

 

[lmidgitd]

I have a picture of the well cap in the link on my second post, and I'll post a picture of the interior piping tonight. I'll try the shaving cream trick, but I went over the interior pipe joints with an incense stick and did not notice any suction leaks.

I'll also add that this problem has persisted before and after replacing a burned out jet pump. The impellor melted on the last pump, and I suspect that it failed due to trying to pump air, resulting in overheating.

 

[Valveman]

Sounds like the foot valve is leaking back? Do you also have a check valve at the pump? If so, remove it.

 

[lmidgitd]

Why are we blind to the easiest indicators? I'm an idiot. A year ago I hooked up a vertical pipe before the pump to allow me to drop a type of mineral dissolving tablet in the well pipe and was able to keep adding water to flush the tablet. So yes, it seems like either a bad foot valve, or worst case scenario, a cracked casing.

Now I have to just figure out if the nut on the well cap needs to turn clockwise or counterclockwise to open the well.

I appreciate the help guys. You've been a tremendous help.

 

[Valveman]

That vertical pipe, or any fitting on the suction side of the pump is just another opportunity for a suction leak. However, if it is a bad foot valve, removing any extra check valve above ground will keep you from losing prime.

 

[Valveman]

Now I have to just figure out if the nut on the well cap needs to turn clockwise or counterclockwise to open the well.

Don't know of any that are left handed threads. But post a picture of the well head.

 

[lmidgitd]

Here is my well head. I mentioned which way to turn it because I have been watching youtube videos, and some of the videos show that the nut is turned clockwise to raise the (I believe) pitless adapter out of it's mounting bracket.

 

[LLigetfa]

What are you calling a nut? All I see in your pics is a threaded plug.

 

[Reach4]

"https://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-wd-gws-wcu-equipapprovalllist_206196_7.pdf lists
TYPE 2000 PJ2-C THREAD-ON UNIT - BACKTAPPED-DEEP WELL SINGLE PIPE PACKER - 2" CASING (Out of Production)

I expect there were for the pump that pre-dated the Menards shallow well pump. So at some point the other pipe would have been capped to prevent air. That cap would be a potential place for air to enter.

How long has the shallow well pump been in service?


If you Google "TYPE 1060 PJC JET PACKER", and look at the cached version, you see some references to PJ2 which seem to imply that the original setup is for a deep well.

 

[lmidgitd]

I expect there were for the pump that pre-dated the Menards shallow well pump. So at some point the other pipe would have been capped to prevent air. That cap would be a potential place for air to enter.

How long has the shallow well pump been in service?

The diagram showing the pipe routing of a shallow well versus a deep well setup is very helpful. I will take a look tonight to make sure that only the inner pipe is connected to the well pump. I know that I currently have a pipe within a pipe (aka: deep well jet style), but I'm not sure if the cavity of the larger pipe is open to the suction of the pump.

The shallow well pump configuration pre-dates me having lived at this house, which started 2012. The air in the water lines did not start until around 2015.

 

[lmidgitd]

What are you calling a nut? All I see in your pics is a threaded plug.

You are correct, my apologies. In the past I had removed the 4 outer perimeter bolts so that I could remove the well cap, but the cap still wouldn't budge.

 

[Valveman]

Looks like just a flange with a plug in it to me. I would remove the plug and have a look down. The flange is probably just stuck and needs some persuasion.

 

[lmidgitd]

Haha, I had given it some persuasion with a mallet, it would move about 3mm side to side but that is it. I didn't want to break anything by being ignorant. Hence why I have been living with the air bursts for years, but it's bugging me to the point of action now.

 

[Reach4]

If that top center thing is a plug, I think you could thread a pipe in that is part of a lifting T. Then maybe tug up on that with your buddy's engine crane, or with two people on the top of T. I am not saying it is safe to tug, but if you are going to tug, using that plug thread as an attachment point seems useful.

Did any of the well companies give you a budgetary price for a new well with submersible pump?

 

[lmidgitd]

No, even after I told them that the other wells are around 65ft, they told me that the cost could fluctuate wildly with what they had to dig through. Anywhere from 12k to 15k, which I thought was high, but I'm also not a well installer.

Using the plug as a lift point is a solid point.

 

[Valveman]

I would remove the plug and have a look down.

 

[Reach4]

I would remove the plug and have a look down.

Borescope, or illuminate with some kind of light dangling, through the hole, from thin power cable that let you see around the power cable?