Pumping Long Distance Proper Design

[lemahoney08]

I currently have a house with a cistern tank buried beside it. The tank has a deep well pump and typical pressure tank. I am now building a new house about 2000ft away and 150ft higher in elevation. I am wanting to put another pump in the cistern to pump to the new house.

In order to reduce cost, I dont want to run the power wires for the pump down from the house as 2000ft would be a very heavy gauge wire and alot of feet of it. So I am thinking there has got to be a way to have a lower voltage coming from my pressure switch down the hill to the old house, at which i would up the voltage and go to the new pump.

I have not messed with the well pumps that have control panels, so not sure if that would help or hurt this design.

My question is has anyone done something similar and if so what all components did you use, what gauge wire, what switches, etc.

Any help or advice would be appreciated greatly.

 

[Reach4]

n order to reduce cost, I dont want to run the power wires for the pump down from the house as 2000ft would be a very heavy gauge wire and alot of feet of it. So I am thinking there has got to be a way to have a lower voltage coming from my pressure switch down the hill to the old house, at which i would up the voltage and go to the new pump.

You could use lower voltage, but to save wire size, you really want lower current. With 14 gauge wire, you could run a pair to a relay near the pump, and the relay would turn the pump on and off.

You could probably use lighter wire, but that might need some additional consideration. I think in that case you could power your smaller wires with a class 2 transformer. Alternatively you could use a low current low voltage circuit. Those can be more subject to capacitive coupling causing misoperation. So happy with 14 AWG , or want to go smaller?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[lemahoney08]

14g wire is fine. So I would run normal 110v to the pressure switch and on to the other house 2000ft away with 14/2 underground? Then what transformer do I need?

 

[Reach4]

No transformer for 120 or 24o volts. You want a relay (also called a contactor).

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/wirega.html 4000 feet round trip of 14 gauge wire has a resistance of 10.1 ohms.

Assume we allow a very conservative 5% voltage drop, a contactor with a 240 volt coil could draw
1.188 amps. A contactor with a 120 volt coil could draw 0.594 amps. I expect that is plenty.

A "heavy duty" 3-wire pump control box has a built in relay. I don't know how much current those relay coils require.

There are relays/contactors available in various formats. Would you want the relay to come with a weatherproof box. They are available. Somebody with experience will probably have a suggestion.

Do you need to send a ground wire along with the pair of power wires from the pressure switch at the house? I don't know.

So this is not all worked out, but I think it is a start.

 

[Valveman]

Just control it and give it power from the cistern. No wires. On at 110 and off at 130 would give you 40/60 at the house.

 

[lemahoney08]

Valveman, Where could you get a 110-130psi pressure switch to put in the cistern tank? Everything I have found are 80psi max.

 

[Reach4]

This looks like one:
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/357/Schneider-Electric-1558059.pdf

The pressure tanks have a max. The Well-X-Trol maximum working pressure is 150 psi, but some other have a lower rating.

 

[Valveman]

I like the Square D GHG2. I think they work up to 175 or so.

 

[lemahoney08]

With 150-170 ft of elevation over 2000ft of pipe, what size pipe/pump would you recommend? I think 15gpm would be sufficient for the 2.5 bath home and livestock barn it will supply.

Second question, I have already put ~50ft of 1in poly pipe out of the cistern tank when I burried the tank so I wouldnt have to dig up close to the tank now and just connect the pump inside the tank. I planned on upsizing at the end of the 50ft to 2in gasket pipe to run up the hill, then reduce back to 1in before entering the basement of the house. Will that 50ft kill the volume and purpose of upsizing to 2in pipe or will it be fine to use that stub out of the tank?

 

[Valveman]

170' is the same as 73 PSI. So you need to add the 50 PSI you want at the house to that number. Rounded to 120 PSI means you need a 110/130 pressure switch setting and a CSV setting of 120 PSI. At 15 GPM 1" pipe has about 5 PSI loss per 100', but 2" has almost no friction loss, so switching to 2" like that is a good thing. You can drop a submersible like a 18GS15 over in the storage tank, or use a multi-stage booster like a 18GB20. It takes a 2HP booster to do what a 1.5HP submersible will do because pumps are more efficient when pushing than when sucking water.

Oh and either type pump will work with the PK1A. You can get one without a tank and heavy duty switch (GHG2) set at 110/130 and CSV at 120. I would use 44 gallon size tank rated for 150 PSI like the WX250 because at high pressure tanks don't hold as much water.

 

[Reach4]

A flow inducer sleeve will be important for a submersible in a cistern. It cools the motor.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/pump_in_tank_0-png.52649/

 

[lemahoney08]

Could the pressure tank be in the basement of the house and only the pressure switch be at the pump/cistern?

 

[Reach4]

The pressure switch must be where the pressure tank is.

There are underground versions of pressure tanks, and there are ways of using a pressure switch nearby I think.

 

[lemahoney08]

If I did the relay approach with the tank and pressure switch inside the basement, it would need to be 120v over 14/2 or could it be some lower voltage signal and smaller/cheaper wire to trigger the relay? I can put the relay inside of a barn nearby the cistern to get the power for the pump.

 

[Valveman]

You could put an additional tank at the top of the hill in the basement. And without a CSV you would need at least one more tank. There are also problems with tanks in different locations not filling at the same time. But you must have a tank at the bottom where the power and pressure switch is. When using a CSV1A, even at the bottom working at high pressure, one 44 gallon size or larger is all the tank you need.

 

[Valveman]

If I did the relay approach with the tank and pressure switch inside the basement, it would need to be 120v over 14/2 or could it be some lower voltage signal and smaller/cheaper wire to trigger the relay? I can put the relay inside of a barn nearby the cistern to get the power for the pump.

If you use a relay from that distance it should be DC voltage to prevent the impedance from making a connection when it is not wanted.

 

[lemahoney08]

What wire, voltage, DC inverter, relay would you recommend?

 

[Valveman]

What wire, voltage, DC inverter, relay would you recommend?

I wouldn't. There are so many problems with a control cable and a pressure tank being that far away that I would not do that unless I absolutely had to. Running a pressure switch and pressure tank at less than 150 PSI is no problem. I have done them with pressures above 400 PSI.

 

[Valveman]

But for 2000' I would probably use a 24VDC transformer and #12 wire.