Pump won't start except manually...briefly

[macbd1]

Hello group, this seems like an excellent forum, but I haven't found an answer for my pump/control problem from browsing/searching. Here are the basics: 'City water' was piped to our rural area early last summer (tremendous!) and we haven't used our well/pump much except for washing vehicles, house siding, garden, etc. and hardly at all this past winter. (And like people, sitting idle is probably the worst thing for a pump.) It's a Berks above-ground, 1/2 hp/3460/60, frame J56J pump, foot-mounted on a Wayne horizontal tank of about 15 gal. (1' dia x 30" long.) This is an old style bladderless tank, it simply must be drained of water occasionally to allow the tank to reaerate, otherwise it will cycle on/off frequently. It has a Square D Pumptrol 30-50 psi pressure switch (9013FSG2J21M4.) The pump unit sits inside a heated pump house above the well. It has operated great for us for 13 years (one prior new Pumptrol) and was provided new or reconditioned at that time by the prior owners, due to the prior pump freezing from losing heat to the pump house.

The pump ran ok this spring but recently I heard it running with no water leaking or discharging from the pump system anywhere. It was cycling periodically (but not rapidly) and the pressure was only about 20 psi. The motor was pretty warm but not extremely hot (I could lay my hand on it for several seconds.) I deaerated the tank and tried again but 'nothing,' no motor, no pressure, no water. Thinking a defective pressure switch was likely causing this I bought another Pumptrol 30-50, but again nothing happened when I connected electrical service (and I had carefully marked the wires for proper reconnection.) However, the new switch (info above) has a lever on the side for manually starting the motor/pump. When I moved the switch to manual this closed the contacts and the motor/pump ran and pressure began to rise -- but some kind of safety or timer kicked it off after 10 seconds. After a minute or so I could barely hear another metallic 'click' when the pump could be turned on again for 10 seconds -- I raised the pressure to about 23 psi after several attempts but it would go no higher and the motor was getting hot. The running motor/pump sounds the same as usual. I 'suspect' the motor/pump was running automatically in this mode with the old pressure switch, when I first noticed something was wrong.

I primed the pump via the 'city water' hose, hardly any water needed to be added. I cleaned out the small hard-hose tube from the pump to the pressure switch even though water was present when I disconnected it. I also removed the motor end-plate and found I could manually turn the motor and pump 'easily.' There is water pressure at the tubing connection to the pressure switch after manual operation, enough to shoot water across the 6' width of the pump house. But the pump will still not start in automatic mode and only runs 10 seconds when started manually. Oh, I also checked wire connections inside the motor end-plate cover to be sure they were clean and connected ok.

Can anyone tell me what kind of sensor or safety switch I am hearing turn off the system, and which then clicks back on after a minute or so? (For clarification, the Pumptrol contacts remain closed when the 'safety' kicks off the motor, in fact, if I leave the manual lever in 'Start' mode, the motor starts immediately when the unknown 'safety' clicks back on.) I first thought this 'click' sound was coming from the pressure switch, but I find no safety switch of any kind mentioned in Pumptrol's on-line spec's. I'm now thinking this may be a motor overload safety switch, but even if so, why doesn't the motor/pump start in automatic mode for at least 10 seconds like it does when manually started...? I hope someone who monitors this forum can help and thanks so much to those who spend time doing so.

Mac

 

[Pumpman]

That pressure switch with the lever has a low pressure drop out feature that shuts the pump off should you run out of water or a line should rupture. You usually have to hold the levr up until the pump pressure reaches 20 psi, or so.

The cklicking sound you hear is probably the thermal overloads that are built into the back of the motor. The thermal overloads are there to protect the motor should there be some sort of problem. Unfortunately, most of the time the pump motor is bad by the time the thermals begin to kick the motor off.

The reason the motor will not start automatically, even when the overloads reset is because of the low pressure dropout feature of the switch. If the system isn't pressured up, you will always have to start the pump manually.

Have a good pump/well person come out and troubleshoot your problem. Don't be surprised if a new motor is in order.
Ron

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Raucina]

Rather a complicated picture, but if you have a pump motor that shuts off from the thermal switch in only 10 seconds, then either the thermal switch is bad and over sensitive, or the motor has a dead short and that said switch gets hot quick and shuts off quick. Let it all happen a few hundred times and you will get toast - or call in a pro to troubleshoot the system.

 

[macbd1]

Thanks for your helpful responses. I checked for a full suction line again, and the foot valve is working ok. I checked to be sure the motor/pump turns freely by hand and checked to be sure the pump is fully primed again. From zero pressure on the gauge I left the pressure tank drain valve open inside the pump house (sand floor), also the faucet on the outside wall of the pumphouse -- the pump manually started and ran for maybe 15-20 seconds under this 'no load' condition before the motor overload sensor kicked it off, having of course only a slight water discharge at each point. But the motor overload sensor kicks the pump off in 8-10 seconds when it is trying to build pressure (both valves closed.)

Everything seems to point to the motor being bad as my Amish licensed plumber and pump-shop owner agrees. He sold his last 'used' motor/pump recently but he will keep his eyes open and ear to the rail. Our not too distant Rural King farm chain store has a new motor/pump for about $200 (lesser quality mfr) and I can rework the plumbing myself although getting the rusted fittings apart may be a chore.

Recall we got 'city water' last year so I don't wan't to spend very much on this project -- I'm even considering a portable pump. Anyone have other ideas?

Much obliged for your time and knowledgeable info !!

Mac

 

[Raucina]

I wouldnt guess at the motor being bad until you tested the amp draw when running with an ammeter and the voltage supplied.

56j motors are very cheap, and I'll guess you can get it at Graingers for 80$, probably 30$ online auctions.

 

[macbd1]

Raucina, you are correct about my guessing the motor is the culprit at this point. I use a small multi-tester for minor electrical troubleshooting but don't own a higher load ammeter. But I found a neat little shop in a larger town/city about 30 miles distant (where I had to visit yesterday and again tomorrow for other reasons) appropriately called The Pump House -- they seem like nice folks, they even know my local Amish pump shop owner very well (why didn't he tell me I wonder?) I dismantled my motor/pump and will have it tested there tomorrow. If the motor is 'toast' as I suspect, they have a 'just-in-today' low-mileage used Burks jet pump with 42 gal. bladder-tank for $150 (independent purchase with private owner who just got city water at edge of the city and is abandoning his well -- everything originally purchased from The Pump House so I will have age and particulars from both the seller and dealer.)

I guess a used motor might be another option, I'll check on that with Pump House as well. But what I find at Grainger's presently is about $128 for a 1/2hp J56 plus freight for a 20 lb. item = about $150+/- total, and I don't find anything at e-Bay, but I'm not very adept at finding lowest prices while my wife could probably come home with one from a garage sale for ten bucks. But, that aside, I see the shaft for these motors has a threaded end for connection to the pump impeller. With all of the rust and corrosion I have found (from our well water) the last thing I want is to have a 'simple' motor replacement job grow into a major pump overhaul.

Thanks again, your input is great!!

I'll post results for those who may be interested.
Mac

 

[macbd1]

Well.......the old pump-motor tested 'toast' so I bought the used 1/2 hp Burks model 5HC pump (15 yrs old) with H20W-TO model HT-20 bladder-type pressure tank (4 yrs old) for $150 which seems reasonable to me. It is a rather simple installation, with the well supply being 1" poly-pipe coming up alongside the well casing. I installed a hose barb, check valve, 90-el with hose barb and a 6" long poly-pipe nipple (all 1") onto a 1" hose barb installed in the pump inlet (1" shallow-well adapter.) On the pressure side (3/4" pump outlet) is a new gauge, 3/4" tee (top plugged for priming) with an 18" run of poly-piping to the pressure tank, then 3/4" out from the tank to an existing 20inch run of 1/2" copper to an existing faucet at the wall of the pumphouse (heated.) After priming, the tank (bladder set at 18 psig) initially wouldn't hold water pressure nor the pump its prime (after turning off the pump), but upon replacing the check valve with another new one, the sytem started, holds pressure and runs fine (with no foot valve or it may be locked in open position.)

Recall that we got 'city water' piped to our rural area last year, the water is great being only somewhat softened (just right for us) and its taste is great with absolutely no chlorine or chemical flavor or odor. What we used to pay for pump-motor electricity, water softener salt, filters, chemicals and maintenance at least equals what we now spend monthly for water ($38 +/-) and the quality of our old well-water was terrible at times. However, the old pump wasn't used much last summer and set idle all winter. This spring it initially started but I found it recently in a fast-cycle mode cycling off the thermal overload motor contacts.

The Burks manual that came with the 'new' pump says the 5HC is factory-set with a 20-40 psig pressure switch. I don't know if it is designed for adapting to higher pressures or whether, say, a 30-50 psig switch could be used or not. However, I tried it with 150' of 5/8" garden hose for several hours and under varying circumstances and had sufficient pressure for my purposes, so I guess the 20-40 psig switch will be ok for garden and wifey's flowers -- and pump volume is more than adequate for the 2.5gpm needed for my high-pressure washer for vehicles and home-siding. The bladder-type pressure tank works great, much better with more stable pressure and less cycling of the pump than with my old bladderless tank that had to be drained of water fairly often.

I learned quite a lot about wells with this project. I found some sort of 'pull-cable' buried in the sand floor alongside the 6" dia. well casing with the cable looped under the cap of the casing. That led to my learning how the 1" poly-pipe (hose) well supply within the casing runs through the casing wall about 3feet below the cap, via a 'pitless adapter' -- and how a 5' +/- long threaded pipe can be used for disconnecting the suction line from the 'pitless adapter' and pulling it out of the well-casing, after the pull-cable is used to free or lift the three fingers that hold the adapter in place. This is a rather unique design of which I was unaware (growing up as a 'town boy') but with the potential 'bad part' being a possible leaking gasket or problem with the adapter or piping 'outside' the casing which would require digging a 4' deep hole alongside the casing for repairs. It also seems a good safety measure would be to install a 12" long 'tee' at the top of the pull-pipe to prevent 'losing' the suction line and pull-pipe to the bottom of the well.

Now for a little controversy: I don't know whether a foot valve was ever installed at the bottom of my suction line but I suspect there was at one time (the well is over 30 years old), but it's apparently been missing or locked in the open position for a lonngg time, with the check valve immediately above the pumphouse floor 'holding' the suction line full of water when the pump is off -- much like holding your finger over the end of a vertical-orientented straw immediately after sucking a drink from a glass. The straw (or suction pipe) will remain full of water so long as your finger or check valve remains 'tight' and there are no leaks or an open valve in the above-ground piping. I don't intend to pull my suction line just to install a new foot-valve unless I must. I see no leaks from the pitless adapter inside the casing and the water level in the well is only 6'-6" below the pumphouse floor -- and it's been severe drought in my area all spring. The well is 35' deep but has never run out of water even in times of drought or when I pumped from it continuously for 8 to 12 hours several times in prior years (to rid water quality problems.) An underground acquifer that runs through my area may help explain the high water-table.

One professional tells me it is perfectly ok to use an above-ground check valve with no foot valve as a permanent installation. A professional on-line installation manual I recently read also says to install 'either' an above-ground check valve or foot valve. However, another professional says the check valve option should only be used as a temporary measure until a foot valve can be installed. Now I suspect the latter professional is 'text-book' correct for a couple of reasons I can think of, but I still don't intend to go to the troublesome effort of pulling my suction line unless I absolutely must. My old system ran great for 13 years with only an above-ground check valve and never failed to hold pump prime and pressure -- I never noticed the gauge dropping even a small fraction of one psi from its pump-stopping point and never had to prime the pump manually. I have checked the new pump numerous times with the same results.

Thanks for any comments you may have.
Mac

 

[macbd1]

Pump won't start manually + foot valve + press switch

My last posting was intended to share my pump/well experiences with others as possible help....but I think the resulting long posting mostly went unread. So, my requests for help went unread also.

Can anyone please provide input for either or both of the following?

1 - Can a Pumptrol 30-50 psig pressure switch be installed on my 'new' 15-yr old 1/2hp 5HC Burks jet pump (with shallow well adapter) that according to its manual is "factory set at 20/40 psi." I suspect the latter simply means a 20-40 psi pressure switch was initially provided with this pump, but I don't know this for certain and therefore hesitate to install a higher psi switch. The shallow-well adapter has a 1-inch inlet and the pump discharge is 3/4-inch. Water level is 7 feet below pump suction inlet and the pump is only used with 150 feet of 5/8 inch garden-hose for sprinkling/watering and exterior cleaning.

2 - My pump suction line from the 35 foot well either has no foot valve or it is 'locked' in the open position. It has operated great for me this way during the past 13 years, using a check valve immediately above floor of pumphouse (vertical orientation) to hold the suction line full of water when pump shuts off (much like putting your finger over a straw in glass of water to hold it full.) The manual for my 'new' 5HC Burks pump says to "install a foot valve on the end of the suction line, *OR* (my emphasis) a check valve in the *horizontal* (my emphasis) line as close to the well as practical."

One professional tells me that using an above-ground check valve as I have it installed is perfectly satisfactory while another professional says that an above-ground check valve should only be for temporary purpose and that a foot valve should 'always' be used for a permanent installation. I don't believe I will be pulling my suction line loose from its 'pitless adapter' (located 3' below pumphouse floor) simply to install a foot valve, but would like to hear how those at this forum feel about this. (My suction line runs vertically from the pitless adapter alongside the 'exterior' wall of the well casing to pumphouse floor.)

Thanks for any input.
Mac

 

[macbd1]

Pump won't start manually + foot valve + press switch

Well....apparently nobody has further input. No big deal:

1- I can find nothing online or elsewhere but the 20-40 psi pressure switch with bladder tank seems to be sufficient so I'm no longer concerned. The lower pressure will be easier on the pump anyway.

PS - My pump dealer called after writing this saying they found an old Burks book and recommend continuing with the 20-40 psi pressure switch with the 5HC pump, but it's ok to tweak it up to 45 psi if I want.

2- With so many different styles of pumps, well design and depth there is no single rule concerning use of foot valves. However, for a shallow well and horizontal jet pump, a foot valve is not necessary (as Burks says in their 1991 manual.) A good spring-type check valve, installed just above ground in the pumphouse, in the suction line to the pump (as close to the well and pump as practical) will hold pressure and keep the suction line full of water for pump prime just as well as a foot valve.

I've operated this way for 13 years with two different model Burks jet pumps and the pressure gauge holds steady as a rock with the pump off for extended periods -- and I never lost pump prime but once (resulting from a bad check valve when the second pump was installed.) With poly-pipe, all I had to do was loosen two clamps on each side of the check valve to replace it. However, to replace a bad foot valve I would have needed to pull the cable-trigger for releasing the 'support-claw' of my my pitless-adapter, pull the suction line loose of this adapter with a drop-pipe and then pull it completely out of the well -- plus reversing this procedure for reinstallation with risk of damaging the adapter's O-Ring or gasket.

Best to all,
Mac

 

[Speedbump]

What exactly is your question?

It sounds like you have everything under control.

bob...

 

[macbd1]

Yeau, sometimes no response is best, that makes us work harder to find the answer to our own questions or problems, and hopefully we will understand the why's and wherefore's of the sitsheashun better.

Everybody coming to this forum with questions or problems should search the archives first -- their answer or resolution may already be there. Secondly, I'd recommend checking out the following hyperlinks including the sublinks in the lefthand margin. I believe all of the handbooks are on line now.

http://www.wellcarehotline.org/
http://www.wellcarehotline.org/wellcare/infosheets.cfm

Mac

 

[macbd1]

Pump...+ foot valve vs. pumphouse check valve

Speedbump (& any others),

A remaining unanswered question that I posted 5/24/07 is:

"One professional [a licensed plumber & well 'finisher'] tells me that using an above-ground check valve as I have it installed is perfectly satisfactory while another professional [licensed well-driller] says that an above-ground check valve should only be for temporary purpose and that a foot valve should 'always' be used for a permanent installation...[and I] would like to hear how those at this forum feel about this."

Note that the Burks pump manual provides for 'either/or' and I much prefer the above-ground access, especially with a pitless adapter involved and risk of damaging its O-ring or gasket when pulling the 1" poly-pipe suction line. Are there any well standards or regulations concerning this check valve vs. foot valve question?

For review, this concerns a 1/2hp horizontal jet pump, 35' well, 7' static level with the 1" spring-type check valve being immediately above the pumphouse floor in vertical orientation, then elbowing with a 6" long horizontal poly-pipe nipple into the 1" shallow-well adapter of the pump.

Thanks,
Mac
PS - Please pardon my 'thumbs down' icon for my 5/24 posting -- I misread this at the time as a 'question mark' in the selection list. Yeau, I know but don't be too hard on an old fart, I usually wear my glasses when I need to see something.

 

[Speedbump]

I'm not sure what a well finisher is.

If you have a well 2" or larger you should have 30 foot of droppipe in the well with a footvalve on the bottom. If not, you have no choice but to put a check valve on top of the well. So in other words, droppipe/footvalve. No droppipe because of well being 1-1/4" or smaller you have to pull directly off the casing and use a checkvalve up top. Preferably as close to the top of the well as possible.

bob...

 

[macbd1]

Bob,

A 'well finisher' is my term for a licensed plumber who has no equipment for providing a well-hole, but who will let owner provide it or sub-contract the hole and casing, then 'finish' the well by providing and installing the pump, pressure tank and all of the plumbing and related accessories. One I know is Amish and has about 50 years of experience with shallow and deep wells within at least a 20 mile radius of my rural area, although his mainstay is other types of plumbing, heating and general mechanical work (he's aged 81and still works every day but Sunday). The Amish use mostly air-operated submersible pumps.

I neglected in my review of this thread to say my well is 6" nominal diameter thick-wall PVC casing. From earlier in the thread, my 1" poly-pipe suction line (I guess what you call droppipe) runs down the *exterior* of the casing about 3 feet to a pitless adapter that is supported *within* the casing by a 3-pronged 'claw' that can be released via a pull-cable 'trigger' at top of well casing. The polypipe suction or droppipe continues inside the casing from the pitless adapter down further into the well, I suppose to about 25' or so from top.

A 'pull-pipe' can be threaded onto the 'side' of the 'split' pitless adapter that has the lower droppipe attached -- thereby separating or 'sliding' it upward from the well, leaving the other 'side' of the adapter remaining mounted in the casing wall. A 'slider-bracket' (my term) having a thick O-ring, seals the two 'sides' of the adapter within the casing while an exterior gasketed fitting provides the casing-seal for this pitless adapter.

The droppipe has no foot valve or it long ago 'locked' in the open position, or was removed as the droppipe will not hold water with its top end open to atmosphere. The check valve that I am talking about is located at the top of the droppipe (alongside exterior of casing) immediately above the sand floor of the pumphouse. It holds the entire droppipe and suction line full of water when the pump is off, much like a straw holds water when you finish sucking a drink and immediately hold your finger over end of the straw. This check valve performs the same function as a foot valve, and has worked successfully for the 13 years that I've owned this land (+ how long before me I wonder?), without losing pump prime or even losing any gauge pressure -- the pressure holds steady as a rock for extensive periods until electrical service is returned, usually by the pressure switch.

Bob, do you happen to know of an online professional design-standard or regulation that requires a foot valve for a shallow well installation like mine having a single-pipe suction line (droppipe) and horizontal jet pump? In other words, if the above-ground check valve works without fail, why install a foot valve?

Thanks for any help or input for an old retired guy who got involved with a pump problem and now thinks he invented 'the well.'

Have a good one,
Mac

 

[Speedbump]

I think what your asking is; should you install a footvalve instead of a check valve. If you can get a footvalve into the well then install one on 30' of 1-1/4" pipe.

bob...

 

[macbd1]

No, Bob, what I am asking is why the heck should I install a foot valve when my above-ground check valve works equally well and is so readily accessible in case a problem with it ever occurs...?
--Mac

 

[Speedbump]

Because the people who do this all the time know that you will have far fewer problems with a footvalve than you will a check valve at the top of the well.

bob...

 

[macbd1]

Without any technical reference, Bob, is that like: "That's the way we've always done it"...?

My above-ground check-valve system worked flawlessly for over 13 years without any maintenance, and never lost water in the suction line or droppipe for pump prime. Gauge pressure always held absolutely steady when the pump was off, even for extended periods. How could a foot-valve provide 'far fewer problems' I wonder, when it hangs submerged in high-mineral water.

When I changed out the pump recently I installed a new check-valve, not because of problems with the old one, just as a longterm preventive measure. Although the new spring-type valve seemed to work ok (by finger) it was losing its seal and therefore pump prime after I had completed the new pump/tank installation. I replaced the check-valve by simply loosening four polypipe clamps (2 each side of valve), changing out the two 'hose-barb' fittings and retightening the clamps, a 20 minute job, and my check-valve system again worked great. I of course was reimbursed for the defective check-valve that may have only needed a good cleaning with compressed air.

To install a new foot-valve would have required 'much' more time to pull the droppipe while risking damage to the O-ring or gasket of the pitless adapter, or experiencing problems with the adapter's 'claw' support or its release trigger. And if the new foot-valve were surprisingly 'bad' (like my check-valve surprise) I would have had to remove and reinstall the droppipe/pitless adapter once again.

This seems a 'no-brainer' decision for my shallow well and single droppipe installation.

I can't help but note that installing a foot-valve would likely require hiring professional service for a lot of people while they would likely have the limited tools and skills needed for above-ground check-valve installation work.

--Mac

 

[Speedbump]

No, it's not because we always did it that way, it's because there are fewer problems with a foot valve than there is with a check valve located out of the water. If yours works fine, good for you. Professionals and homeowners do things differently. We do it the right way and you do it the easy way. When you ask a question it would be easier if you would just accept the answer instead of argueing about it.

bob...

 

[Sammyhydro11]

Hey Mac,
put a foot valve in your well. If you ever have a vacuum leak you will only notice it when the pump is running. If you have a vacuum leak with a check valve at the pump you will eventually wake up in the morning with no water. Why on earth do you even have a shallow well pump on this well when you can have a submersible installed in it. If you think you have all the answers dont ask any more questions. You sound similar to another person in this forum who started out learning about wells by poking at people just like you are. People dont tell you to do stuff for nothing. If you think your setup is the way it should be professionally done, well then i guess your the pro.

SAM