Pump wire and safety rope under or over torque

[AZgunslinger]

Wire over or under arrestor? Check valve to far from pump?

I'm in process of installing a knew pump and using 1" poly pipe. My father jumped the gun on me and placed the check valve around 20' above the pump. He was planning on us putting 2 check valves on the drop. I then read the post here on check valve placement from 2009 and all the comments. So I've decided to just use the one near the pump instead of multiple. Will that check valve be ok if left were my pops installed it approx 18 feet above the pump it do I need to move it closer to pump? If so how close?

My second question is the wire and safety rope placement. Does it go under or over torque arrestor. I would imaging under the rubber of it and clamped in with it but the pump I pulled out had the wire running between the grooves of torque arrestor and over the clamps. They also had the check valve inside the arrestor.

Thank you for your time!

Well is 306'
Old pump sat at 180'
Static is at 98'
4" casing
New pump is a 1 3/4 hp Tulhorse

 

[Valveman]

With 4" casing I would not use a rope, cable, or a torque arrestor. Just more likely to get the pump stuck in the well. And you will be lucky if that check valve 18' above the pump does not cause a water hammer thump on pump start. If it does, it will need to be lowered by 18'.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Use two worm gear clamps on each barbed connection with the worm gear parts on opposite sides of the pipe. Some people use a special longer barbed connector and fit 3 worm gear clamps.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah use the long barb fittings and a couple of hose clamps, then you don't need a rope or cable. Use double jacketed wire and a CSV and you won't need torque arrestors. I wouldn't do it any other way.

 

[AZgunslinger]

I do have the extra long barbed fittings and proper hose clamps.
I'm not feeding the house directly with the pump. The well pump fills a 1600 gallon tank and a 800 gallon tank on my hill. I then feed the house via jet pump and pressure tank.
Would I still benefit from a CSV? On average I only need to turn well pump on once a week. Running about 1.5 hours. If I still do need one would you recommend one please.


The pump that was in before did in fact get stuck and dropped to bottom of well.
I tried pulling it myself only got it up 30 feet and it was stuck. It didn't have a safety rope at all. It did have an arrestor. the local well guy came out and pulled on it with his rig and up came the pipe with arrestor and union and check valve. They previous person put a union on the check valve and both were inside the arrestor. What looked like had happened was the union after few years finally loosed up enough to leak. It looked like the pvc pipe melted from the pump recirculating its own water between the union and pump. For some reason either way it did get hot enough down there to melt the threads on the pvc union and nipple going to pump. At the point I tried pulling it it must of been all that was holding it was the 4 wire pump wire. It broke at the splices when the well guy pulled on it. He dropped a cupped lead weight 3" in diameter to sound it and claims the pump now sits on the bottom at 306 feet and sank to bottom.

So I will move my check valve to right above my pump. As I figured and you folks have confirmed.
My worry is no safety rope though.
I have new smooth poly ethelyne rope I bought from Dean Bennett supply who I also bought my fittings and check valves from.
Do you think that can still cause a wedging while retrieving the pump later?

With no torque arrestor will it not cause my wire to chafe against the walls? I see s few saying it will and few saying It's not needed.
I have PVC lined submersible wire.
12 AWG/3 W/ground (4wire) THW MADE IN
USA. Each wire is insulated plus the PVC insulated around s the wires. I bought it from Tuhorse with my pump.

I really appreciate all the help and your time.
If you can answer each question I still have it really helps.

 

[Valveman]

I do have the extra long barbed fittings and proper hose clamps.
I'm not feeding the house directly with the pump. The well pump fills a 1600 gallon tank and a 800 gallon tank on my hill. I then feed the house via jet pump and pressure tank.
Would I still benefit from a CSV? On average I only need to turn well pump on once a week. Running about 1.5 hours. If I still do need one would you recommend one please.


The pump that was in before did in fact get stuck and dropped to bottom of well.
I tried pulling it myself only got it up 30 feet and it was stuck. It didn't have a safety rope at all. It did have an arrestor. the local well guy came out and pulled on it with his rig and up came the pipe with arrestor and union and check valve. They previous person put a union on the check valve and both were inside the arrestor. What looked like had happened was the union after few years finally loosed up enough to leak. It looked like the pvc pipe melted from the pump recirculating its own water between the union and pump. For some reason either way it did get hot enough down there to melt the threads on the pvc union and nipple going to pump. At the point I tried pulling it it must of been all that was holding it was the 4 wire pump wire. It broke at the splices when the well guy pulled on it. He dropped a cupped lead weight 3" in diameter to sound it and claims the pump now sits on the bottom at 306 feet and sank to bottom.

So I will move my check valve to right above my pump. As I figured and you folks have confirmed.
My worry is no safety rope though.
I have new smooth poly ethelyne rope I bought from Dean Bennett supply who I also bought my fittings and check valves from.
Do you think that can still cause a wedging while retrieving the pump later?

With no torque arrestor will it not cause my wire to chafe against the walls? I see s few saying it will and few saying It's not needed.
I have PVC lined submersible wire.
12 AWG/3 W/ground (4wire) THW MADE IN
USA. Each wire is insulated plus the PVC insulated around s the wires. I bought it from Tuhorse with my pump.

I really appreciate all the help and your time.
If you can answer each question I still have it really helps.

If you are just feeding a storage tank with the well pump a CSV is not needed or helpful. But a Cycle Sensor would be helpful if you don't already have some type of dry well protection for the pump.

You could benefit from a CSV on the jet pump, especially if it is a large pump and cycles on and off a lot while you are using water.

The only time you have any "torque" is when the pump starts. So if the pump only starts once a week, you don't need torque arrestors. Just tape the double insulated wire every 10' or so. Arrestors are only useful for pumps that cycle dozens or hundreds of times per day. This is why a CSV is helpful, as it can reduce the number of cycles to the point an arrestor is not needed.

Unless you use a SS cable, the pipe will be stronger than any rope. Just don't put any extra unions or anything that can come loose, and you won't have to worry about it. If it brakes the wire and the pipe, the rope is probably not going to hold up, and unless it breaks at the pump, a few feet of rope or cable in a well can make a really good wedge. If the pump falls to the bottom of the well you can usually put another one above it. But if it wedges and sticks on the way up, some times even heavy equipment can't drive it to the bottom of the well.

 

[VAWellDriller]

If this is a steel well, it sounds crusted up and you may have a problem getting another 4" pump down. You should consider a 3" Grundfos or at least a slim line 4" like the Franklin 3200 series (I think that's the one). Like already said, skip the torque arrester and safety rope...use steel pipe if you're really worried about getting it back.

 

[Valveman]

If this is a steel well, it sounds crusted up and you may have a problem getting another 4" pump down. You should consider a 3" Grundfos or at least a slim line 4" like the Franklin 3200 series (I think that's the one). Like already said, skip the torque arrester and safety rope...use steel pipe if you're really worried about getting it back.

I was going to mention the 3" Grundfos SQ, but after you told me they needed a motor shroud, that makes them the same 4" as a 4" regular pump. And I am off anything Franklin less than 25 GPM until they answer why their pumps can no longer handle low flow.

 

[VAWellDriller]

Looks like its probably a bottom feeding well...he shouldn't need a shroud.

 

[Valveman]

Looks like its probably a bottom feeding well...he shouldn't need a shroud.

Well I guess if the 4" doesn't need a shroud the 3" won't either. So the 3" would be a good idea for a well with 4" crusted casing. The only question is how much can you get from a SQ at 306' plus pressure?

 

[VAWellDriller]

180' pump setting....I'm going to guess a pumping water lever around 150 since he said the tight spot in his well was 30' up when he tried to pull pump. He can get 15-20 gpm pressure with a sq if his well will keep up and he wants that much.

 

[Valveman]

180' pump setting....I'm going to guess a pumping water lever around 150 since he said the tight spot in his well was 30' up when he tried to pull pump. He can get 15-20 gpm pressure with a sq if his well will keep up and he wants that much.

I missed that. Well is 306', and pump is at 180', so you should be good with an SQ if you want. But I don't know what you are going to do about that "Stagnant" Water at 98'. LOL I know you meant "Static".

 

[AZgunslinger]

Thanks guys I really appreciate the help.
I'm disabled on a fixed income. I just can't afford to have the pros does this for me. Usually isn't much I can't fix on my own but this job has me on edge. It's frustrating when you get told or read multiple ways to do something the "right way"! It drives me nuts beating myself up if I'm not doing it right the first time. I wanted to support the local well guy here again but after he wanted to charge me $2700.00 total to put new pump in I asked him to break down the cost for materials vs labor. He was going to charge me $75.00 for a 1" brass check valve telling me they're usually $83.00 , $75.00 for 200 feet of poly rope. I got a bad taste in my mouth. He wanted $1100.00 for grundfos pump that was only going to give me 3gpm as well as was charging me $400 "travel fee" I'm only 23 miles from his shop with all but 1.5 miles of it paved and the 1.5 mile dirt road is maintained till about 100 feet from my well.. We use to have 2 well guys here but one recently retired so I guess he's cashing in on the monopoly.

I've moved the check valve and I'm not going to use the torque arrestor. I really appreciate the help!

For the record. My well is not steel cased. It's 4" PVC.
At the head it has steel around the PVC That I believe 5 5/8" not sure but the inside is not a full 6". The steel outer case I think only goes down so far. I still don't know for sure if my well is full cased with the PVC complete to bottom.