Pump sucking air

[Castle Rock]

New guy here but have been searching this site for answers for a while. I have a vacation cabin in Wisconsin with a shallow depth well. I have a Goulds J5S pump in the crawlspace . Suction side runs horizontal out the foundation to a 3-4” capped casing and I assume uses a pitless adapter. Water table is about 20 feet below surface in a very sandy soil and I believe the point is around 30-35ft down. The well itself was installed in the mid 70’s. My pump builds pressure but takes about 5 minutes to satisfy my pressure switch on first startup for the past 2 years (I shut it down when I leave) It holds pressure just fine and the pressure at the tap is normal until it runs low enough to start pump. It take a long time to recover. Its getting worse now and when I take a shower the pumpwill run constant and the pressure drops low enough to not get much water out of the shower. Filling the washer takes 10-15 minutes so I am not getting much volume. It will eventually shut off and hold pressure indefinitely. When pump runs I can hear air in the pump housing. Im thinking its leaking at either the union on the suction side or the pitless adapter or a clogged point.
I took the cap off the outside casing and there is a threaded rod which is probably for lifting. I have searched for what this well could look like but cant seem to find anything that looks like what I am looking at !! Im pretty sure it is a driven well since the water table is so high and its relatively sandy with a layer of hard pan at about 15 ft. . Will I be able to put some Nuwell down the outer casing to see if its a screen problemt that can be cleared ? If its not the screen then I will have to probably dig to see if its the horizontal galvanized pipe . Any input appreciated. Im having a hard time figuring out what is inside that casing and what I would be pulling out of it !

 

[Reach4]

What pressure does your pump turn off at?

Is there a check valve you can see? With a pitless, I would think you would have a foot valve (combo screen and check valve) as your only check valve on the path into the pump.

I took the cap off the outside casing and there is a threaded rod which is probably for lifting.

I doubt that threaded rod is for lifting. Is there a head or flat for turning on that rod?

Im pretty sure it is a driven well since the water table is so high and its relatively sandy with a layer of hard pan at about 15 ft. .

I think a driven well with a 3 inch, or bigger, casing and a pitless is highly unlikely. I am not a pro.

 

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[Castle Rock]

I am not up at the cabin so I am going by memory on the threaded rod. There is no flat to turn it. I may have mistakenly called it a driven well. After searching for photos of well types it looks like it is a drilled well. Outside casing is 3-4” . I dont know what the cut out pressure is. I am sure the issue is with the draw of the pump. It just isnt getting enough water to deliver . The only check valve visible is on the output side of pump . Racking my brain with this. The pressure holds steady and pump will not come on due to leakage anywhere. The air sound seems to come from inside the pump housing. I tried listening to the suction pipe with a screwdriver to my ear and i cant tell if its coming thru suction side of piping. Its will cause the faucets to purge air after it runs The system out of water. Can a pump draw air thru the seals if the point screen is badly plugged ?

 

[Reach4]

1. What pressure does your pump turn off at?
2. Do you get air spitting out of your faucets?

I suggest measuring the casing diameter or circumference it it becomes convenient.

 

[WorthFlorida]

Is there another pipe inside the well casing from the pump? It be like a using a straw. Or are there two pipes for a jet. 20 ft is about the max depth to draw off the top of the well. You can go deeper but the water flow would be reduced so a jet is used. Your water table could be dropping.

 

[Castle Rock]

Yes I get air spitting on first start up when I get to the house and also when I run the shower and the pressure falls to near zero. I assume the well looks like this. I thought the threaded rod would be a means of pulling the screen and foot valve. The casing stands about 4 feet above grade and is 3-4”. I can measure when I go back up . I do not have a pressure gage on the system at this time.

 

[Castle Rock]

Is there another pipe inside the well casing from the pump? It be like a using a straw. Or are there two pipes for a jet. 20 ft is about the max depth to draw off the top of the well. You can go deeper but the water flow would be reduced so a jet is used. Your water table could be dropping.

Yes there is pipe drop inside the casing and a single horizontal pipe on the suction side of the jet pump in crawlspace going out to the casing. Looking at the diagram I posted my well casing just has a galvanized cap at the top and I dont think its actually vented.

 

[Reach4]

Yes I get air spitting on first start up when I get to the house and also when I run the shower and the pressure falls to near zero.

Those symptoms could be compatible with running out of water in the well. Or a vacuum leak. But I don't think a vacuum leak would become a larger factor with extra minutes in the shower.

If the water level in the casing falls enough to cause cavitation, that would be somewhat similar to air from the point of view of the pump, but that would not cause air to come out of the faucets.

Your proposed Nuwell treatment might help if the problem is the casing screen becoming clogged, slowing the ground water replenishing the casing.

 

[Castle Rock]

Just talked to a neighbor up there and he recently had his drop pipe and screen replaced along with the pitless. The threaded rod I see in fact is threaded into the top of the pitless adapter and is a means to pull it all out. He said they normally dont leave that on when they are done with the well. He is sending me a pic of the old point they pulled out of his. Also told me I have to register the new point with the state.
I think I will try checking for leaks on the horizontal pipe first. If those are sound I will try the Nuwell and if that fails Pull the point.

 

[LLigetfa]

A pitless that does not have a cam to lock it in place normally takes a threaded pipe, not a threaded rod. Even those that have a cam would usually have a threaded pipe with which to pull it and may utilize a rod with flats on it to release the cam.

 

[Castle Rock]

I ordered some Nuwell and will try that when I go up there. Will get some pics of my setup.i think its this type.

 

[Reach4]

View attachment 56285 I ordered some Nuwell and will try that when I go up there. Will get some pics of my setup.i think its this type.

That type would normally have a 1 inch NTP thread. You make a pipe with a t-handle if you are lifting by hand. 1 inch NPT threaded rods are not really common. They would be heavy.
http://www.camprehab.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Pitless-tool-Handle.jpg

 

[Castle Rock]

Thanks. I think this is how mine will come out. With this type of adapter , is there anything that seals between the drop line and the casing ? If I put Nuwell down there of course it has to be able to hit the water .

 

[LLigetfa]

Not unless the well was a flowing artesian and they installed a drawdown seal.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks. I think this is how mine will come out. With this type of adapter , is there anything that seals between the drop line and the casing ? If I put Nuwell down there of course it has to be able to hit the water .

If I understand correctly, there is an o-ring labeled "male o-ring" in this picture:

It is good practice to replace that o-ring, when you put the pitless back down, with a new o-ring lightly lubed with silicone grease.

These pieces are usually not interchangeable brand-to-brand.

 

[Castle Rock]

So before I get too far ahead of myself , does this sound like a good process of elimination to determine what I think is air in the impeller housing coming from somewhere. Pressure stays in system once its full and pump does not come on until faucet opens and pressure switch calls. Very slow to make up and cut off with air sound in housing.

1. Check bladder tank pressure to confirm bladder is ok
2. Open top of casing and run pump, listen for suction leaks to check pitless
3. Inspect suction side union on pump for tightness/leaks
4. Inspect horizontal run outside to pitless
5. Use Nuwell if no leaks found
6. Punt. Call well guy !

 

[Reach4]

#1 is always a good idea, but I don't think that would cause this problem.
#2 seem reasonable.

#3 To look for a vacuum leak at the union or other joint, try putting the word

into the search box above. Another method is to use a sopping wet sponge or cloth on joints to see if the vacuum increases as you let water get sucked into a joint leak into the search box above for this forum.
Another method is to use a sopping wet sponge or cloth on joints to see if the vacuum/pressure increases while pumping, as you let water get sucked into a joint leak.

 

[Castle Rock]

Thanks Reach4. I will pick up a can and try it. I will check all round the pump since the sound is mostly coming from inside the pump as well as the union and then continue down the pipe. I assume a vacuum leak sucks the foam in and leaves a crater.

 

[Castle Rock]

Now that I think of it, I replaced the drain plug on the pump housing to make it easier to drain the system in winter.... a pipe nipple with a small ball valve . Hmmmm.....

 

[LLigetfa]

The sound of air in the pump can be similar to the sound of cavitation from the water table dropping too low for the pump to be able to lift the water. The difference however is that if it is a suction leak there could be air spitting out of the faucets. You mentioned air when turning on the system for the first time but if it continues long after that, then it is likely a suction leak. A suction leak does not always also manifest as a pressure leak. A suction leak can often cause a loss of prime.