Pump for boost from water tank

[Hurricane Hill]

I draw water from a tank that is fed by a few springs, and need to boost pressure to my home. I've seen plenty of submersible pump recommendations here, but the most I've found on other setups is to use a "jet pump".

What would a good pump be to use in conjunction with a CSV for my situation? Grundfos seems to be one of the preferred brands for submersible, so I've found the Grundfos JP series (jet pump) that seems to be used for shallow well and cistern/tank setups.

Any recommendations very much appreciated.

Note: I know very little about this topic. I'm doing my best to learn, though I am not a professional in this field, nor do I intend to become one. I have already tried engaging a professional, but haven't found anyone who already has any experience with anything except VSD/VFD booster systems.

 

[Valveman]

A Grundfos jp10 or jp15 would be a good fit with a Pside Kick kit, which you can easily install and will do a better job than any VFD/VSD.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Hurricane Hill]

When looking at the Grundfos JP line, to match jp10 and jp15 I find the JP10S-SS (Stainless Steel), the JP10S-CI (Cast Iron), both with 115/230v and a pressure switch setting of 30-50psi. I also find the JP15S-CI (shallow well) and JP15D-CI (deep well) which are both cast iron 230v with PSI of 40-60. Are these the models you are referring to?

For now the JP15S-CI is out because I do not yet have 230 (working on it starting in the spring).

Otherwise, details are thin between the JP10S SS/CI models. Obviously one is Cast Iron, and one is Stainless Steel. There seems to be some price difference, but until I can get a quote from someone I don't trust what I see just poking around on the net. I'm guessing, based on the thin information I can find that the difference is only the material used, and that stainless steel will give me a longer pump life span. Do I have this right?

Are there other pumps or brands which are favored, or believed to be well suited, for this application?

 

[Hurricane Hill]

Found a post here that has some detail on a somewhat similar setup, so just referencing it here for convenience.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....storage-tank-into-existing-well-system.57046/

 

[Valveman]

I don't know that the SS is any better than the CI, but just as good. Goulds j10s, Starite, F&W are also good pumps.

 

[Hurricane Hill]

Thanks for the info valveman.. Here is what I've learned about these various brands in a very quick review.

I suppose the stainless steel is just about looks. Found the specs, and they appear to be the same. Once you go to 230 they only offer cast iron anyhow. The Grundfos manual isn't as nice as other vendors, and GPM ratings are slightly lower (why I do not know).

The Goulds J10S seems to be about double the cost of Grundfos, slightly higher GPM rating, and may have some additional conveniences. The manual seems well done.

The Sta Rite HNE-L has specs comparable to the Goulds, possibly without additional conveniences, at a price similar to the Grundfos. Manual seems well done. Edit: Noting that Sta-Rite is owned by Pentair.

F&W seems unique in that they have a 1.5HP pump which handles both 115/230v. The CPJS and CPJ models seem to be suitable for the task. Pricing ranges between Grundfos and Goulds. GPM ratings are slightly higher than other manufacturers. 1.5HP models use a brass impeller, which I haven't noticed anywhere else (noryl thermoplastic seems common). Manual seems well done.

Edit: Also found Lancaster.. They also offer 115/230 units. Single stage up to 1HP and they have a dual stage 1.5HP. They don't seem to give a specific GPM value, but instead provide a detailed chart. From what I can tell the 1.5HP would be something like 20-25 GPM. Manual is ok. Lancaster also sells a product they call "MASCONTROL" which seems to be some kind of electronic pump controller.

Lancaster and F&W both seem to be made in the USA. Not sure about the others.

 

[Hurricane Hill]

Learning how to read pump curves, I note that my tank is located higher up on the hill than where the pump will be by maybe 30 feet, but there is also a fairly long run. I have no idea how this affects things since all the data I find assumes you are pumping up.

 

[Valveman]

Pump 30' below, the cistern will feed your pump with about 13 psi. You can add 13 psi to what the pump can produce. Distance only matters if the pipe is too small. Check friction loss at max pump flow rate.

 

[Hurricane Hill]

The pipe is 1 1/2", and will do, thanks!

 

[Ballvalve]

The pipe is 1 1/2", and will do, thanks!

http://www.syncroflo.com/condoflo interesting set up. Maybe valveman knows about these guys - they seem to build large constant pressure systems.

FWIW, here is a good collection... http://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/quick_search.php

 

[Hurricane Hill]

Basic Pump Specs

115/230V Pumps
F&W CPJ15 - 1.5HP - 115/230V 21/10.5A - 50PSI 23GPM at 5'
Lancaster 2SW97 - 1.5HP - 115/230V 14/7A - 50PSI 23GPM at 5'
Goulds J15S - 1.5HP - 115/230V 21.4/10.7A - 50PSI 25GPM at 5'
Goulds J10S - 1HP - 115/230V 16.2/8.1A - 50PSI 16.6GPM at 5'
Grundfos JP10S-CI - 1HP - 115/230V 13.8/7.1A 1587/1633W - 50PSI 20GPM at 5'

230V only Pumps

Grundfos JP15S-CI - 1.5HP - 230V 8A - 50PSI 23GPM at 5'

Takeaway

• The Goulds 1HP pump doesn't seem to keep up with other options. The 1.5HP model however seems to be on the top.
• For flexibility, the F&W and Lancaster would appear to have the best value at 23GPM with dual voltage.
  
• The Lancaster 1.5HP and Grundfos 1HP seem to have the better power draws (nearly equal), and it appears the Lancaster is the most efficient pump.

If I've understood any of the above incorrectly, I'd be very happy to be corrected.

Power Requirements

For power, 1 HP = 745.7 watts. I have no idea what PF or EFF would be for these pump motors, which could change these numbers by quite a bit . So, very loosely (and likely quite incorrect) . . .

1HP - 745.7 Watt - 6.5A at 115V and 3.24A at 230V.
1.5HP - 1118.9 Watt - 9.7A at 115 and 4.9A at 230V

Looking at the amps listed in the specs above, it is hard to tell if the formula is just simply too generic (not accounting for PF, etc), or if they are listing starting amps, etc.

Again, I'd greatly appreciate any clarification or correction here.

Power Use with a CSV

I am aware that at lower needs the CSV is expected to cut amps need downward. Some real world data would be great. For instance, 1.5HP 230v 7A at 50PSI 2.1GPM, a CSV would typically derate the pump motor to how many amps? Having even a basic understanding of this would be very helpful for folks like me who are entirely off-grid.

 

[Valveman]

I have never been able to get efficiency or power curves for jet pumps or most small submersibles. But just for house water efficiency or power at low flow won't make much difference.

But if you are totally on batteries, you just got to make sure the pump isn't too large for tbe inverter to handle start up amps. Other than that the gallons per watts is about the same with big pumps as with small pumps.

However, anytime you restrict the flow with a CSV or slow the motor with a VFD you will get fewer gpm per watts. It is best just to use a large pressure tank. That way your pump is always running at it's best efficiency rate, or it is off. And you would be using the pressure tank to store energy just like having more batteries.

Also you might want to look at Pilotech pumps. I have tried a couple with good luck. They look like a very close copy of a Goulds.

 

[Reach4]

IMO a jet pump would not be appropriate for somebody who is off grid. I think 1 HP will draw on the order of 1 KW to compensate for losses and for easy math. Starting power and current is significantly higher.

Want to tell us more about that off-grid? Off grid seems unlikely to be a good match for CSV, I suspect. Are you keeping a diesel generator running most of the time? I don't find the efficiency curves right now, but I expect that a 15 GPM pump pumping 1 GPM would draw about 70 to 80% of the power of a pump pumping 15 GPM. I am not a pro, and I expect to edit this if I find out otherwise regarding power. Diesel fuel will not stay so cheap for the next 20 years. You want to find pump curves with efficiency curves. I expect you pay something like 10X as much for power compared to grid power.

I would be looking for something like a 15 GPM 1/2 HP submersible in your case as being a better match than a jet pump. It would go horizontally in the bottom of your cistern. There is probably something even better than that for your use, but it would cost more.

I would consider letting your water PSI drop to 10 or 13 PSI except for when you need more. I expect 10 PSI would be enough to refill a gravity toilet, even though it probably does not meet specifications.

There are efficiency curves for 4 inch pumps and 1/2 HP pumps. But I don't find them right now. I have attached a snip for Grundfos 85S 85 GPM 6 inch pumps. Expect a 6 inch pump to be more efficient than a 4. And for the GPM scale at the bottom, maybe divide that by 5 to scale down to a smaller pump. But note they use the same curve for efficiency for the various HP/depth pumps.

Something like a Dayton 5UXF4 which is a 4 stage 1/2 HP pump would be more efficient than a jet pump.

Also see Goulds 1SC51C-A and specifically 1SC51C0AA http://documentlibrary.xylemappliedwater.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/22/files/2012/07/B1SC-R3.pdf

 

[Hurricane Hill]

Here is some detail on my power system.

We are on an Outback inverter with a 28kw battery bank. At the moment I only have a small solar array (about 2kw per day), but will be expanding it dramatically next spring. The inverter is a beast, and can run just about anything you can imagine. Refrigerators, power tools, air conditioners, air compressors, all have no difficulty at all on this system.

I have a Honda eu-3000is (gasoline), and will be adding two additional generators. An eu-7000is (gasoline), and a Winco PSS12 or Kohler 14RESA, both propane units.

Right now we use $6 of gas every 3 or 4 days to top off the battery bank, but at the moment we also don't have a huge amount of energy usage.

We don't have any continuous water needs. Our water usage is actually rather low compared to the typical usage numbers (far less than 300 gallons per day). A 2500 gallon tank lasts us somewhere over a month at the moment. We have low flow water saving everything.

 

[Valveman]

Wow I've never seen an off grid system that could handle all that. And especially not having to rely on solar or wind. I would like to ckeck into it. How many and what kind of batteries do you have?

So if your storing all your energy in batteries and have plenty of it, there is no reason to store water in a pressure tank. You have 2500 gallons aleady stored. Just let the pump come and deliver constant pressure anytime you need water.

But i don't think you need a 23 gpm pump. Figure your total peak demand. I'll bet a J05S 1/2 hp will do all you need and then some. 13 psi coming in makes a lot of difference.

You could also use a 10/50 pressure switch with a CSV set ar 40 psi. That way the pump would not even come on for snall gpm rates like hand washing and slow filling toilets. But when you open more like a shower, the friction loss would reduce line pressure from 13 to 10 psi and the pump woud start. Then the CSV would hold 40 for as long as you are in the shower.

 

[Reach4]

Goulds 5GBC03 or 5GBS03 looks worth considering. 1/3 HP and will put out about 7 GPM or so in this application I think.

Snip is from http://www.lockewell.com/pdf/goulds/B5-33GB.pdf page 8 top.

 

[Hurricane Hill]

@valveman - We do have some solar, and I'll be increasing that quite a lot in the near future. We also have plans for wind generators (being on the top of a very windy mountain).

Currently we have a Solar-One 24V 30kWh bank. It is getting a bit old, so we will be upgrading to 48V next spring, and with a much higher available kWh.

The Outback setup is one FX inverter/charger and one MX charge controller. The FX can output around 30A continuous, so we would have some trouble if we tried to use/start everything all at once. This will be upgraded to multiple FX units that will be capable of handling 240V and far more amps at 120V.

The MX just controls charge from the panels. It isn't much at the moment at just about 2kW per day. It was fine for weekend use, but now that we are living here full time again it's time for some serious upgrades.

 

[Hurricane Hill]

So if your storing all your energy in batteries and have plenty of it, there is no reason to store water in a pressure tank. You have 2500 gallons aleady stored. Just let the pump come and deliver constant pressure anytime you need water.

Wouldn't that cause too much cycling for things like working in the kitchen? I would think it would still be better for the pump to have at least a small buffer.

Also, I noticed some pumps have a max starts per day specification. One I looked at previously was only 20 per day, which seemed rather low.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah the kind of pump you are looking at will handle about 300 cycles per day. For someone who uses less than 200 gallons per day this won't be a problem. The 4.5 gallon size tank holds 1 gallon of water. So you have to use this gallon before the pump will even start. When the pump starts the CSV will keep it running until you turn off the faucets and then run another 30 seconds or so to refill the gallon in the tank before the pump shuts off. This way the pump may cycle 20-30 times a day for toilet flushes, washing machine, ets., but it only cycles once for each shower or other long term use of water. I am guessing your system will cycle the pump 10-15 times a day. But even if it cycled ever time you touched a faucet, which it won't, it would still only cycle maybe 50 times per day.

 

[Hurricane Hill]

Going through contractors, I finally found one who isn't pushing the MQ3. His proposed system is nothing more than a Goulds J10S, and a Well-Rite WR-260, with assorted gauges, pressure switches, etc. No VFD, no soft-starter, no CSV.

So, relatively expensive pressure tank.. pressure will vary some while the pressure tank is draining the 29 gallon (I believe I have that right for the 1HP pump) drawdown.. what else?

Let's bypass for a moment the operating differences between a small and large pressure tank.. Let's pretend I already own some kind of pressure tank, and will keep using it until it falls apart. What would the addition of a CSV do in this situation?