Pump check valve or pipe leaking.

[Topgun510]

Hello everyone,

Looks like every ten years or so I find myself on this forum asking for help. A decade ago it was the septic, drain pipe. Now we are dealing with what I suspect is a failed check valve or pipe in the well. Having the capability of hearing mouse fart has its pros and cons, I hear everything. When the well pump went off more than usual despite no water being used and the wife acknowledged the laundry was NOT running, I knew we had a problem. After a check of all the faucets and pipes revealed no leaks, I pretty much arrived at the conclusion that this in a problem on the inlet side, pump, pipe and check valve.

Looking at the documentation the previous owners left us from the well install isn't very comforting. The pump is 135' down. Looking at the cap of the well, hhmm, how the hell am I even going to be able to take this thing off? So, before I do anything I'll later regret, I figured I'd come on here and seek out some advice from you guys. Having been put in back in 1968, what is the likelihood of the pipe being galvanized vs polyethelene?? I have called a local professional and am currently awaiting a call back. Any advice you all have is welcomed. I've shut the breaker off in the meantime.

 

[Reach4]

When the well pump went off more than usual and the wife did not say the laundry was running, I knew we had a problem. After a check of all the faucets and pipes revealed no leaks, I pretty much arrived at the conclusion that this in a problem on the inlet side, pump, pipe and check valve.

Are you saying the pump cycles more frequently? That would typically be a failed pressure tank.

Or are you saying it cycles when no water is being used? That does sound like the check valve at the pump.

You could have schedule 80 PVC drop pipe. That might be the best if you will have the pump professionally attended to.

 

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[Topgun510]

Are you saying the pump cycles more frequently? That would typically be a failed pressure tank.

Or are you saying it cycles when no water is being used? That does sound like the check valve at the pump.

You could have schedule 80 PVC drop pipe. That might be the best if you will have the pump professionally attended to.

The pump is cycling every 48 seconds even when no water is being used.

 

[Valveman]

Being that old there is a very good possibility it is steel pipe. With those old systems there is usually an additional check valve before the pressure tank. If there is another check valve, you could replace it first and see if the problem goes away. If you add another check valve and there is a hole in the pipe, you will start getting air out the faucets.

I am guessing just the weight of the pipe and pump is holding that well seal on the casing.

 

[Topgun510]

Being that old there is a very good possibility it is steel pipe. With those old systems there is usually an additional check valve before the pressure tank. If there is another check valve, you could replace it first and see if the problem goes away. If you add another check valve and there is a hole in the pipe, you will start getting air out the faucets.

I am guessing just the weight of the pipe and pump is holding that well seal on the casing.

I've been reading many of your replies in other threads. There is no check valve before the pressure tank. Smart state eh? For a second there I wish there was, then I got to reading your post about the things sounding better on paper than in the real world.

Any advice on removing that cap? I removed the small nut, and peeked inside. Looks like a pipe runs down the center of that cap to what appears to be another cap almost?? Pretty safe for me to remove that big pipe plug in the center??

 

[Valveman]

I am old, but I don't remember ever seeing a well seal like that one. Not sure how to help you. Google the name of the well seal and see what comes up. I can't read it from the picture.

 

[Topgun510]

Found this a moment ago after I Google the patent #. Any words of advice on how to proceed?

I'm thinking I need to remove #19 pipe plug and then tap C cover off?? Looks like #40 is the pitlese adapter that keeps the pump and down pipe located? Thanks for all your help guys.

 

[Valveman]

Looks like a spool type pitless. Probably just need to pull up and it will come loose. But it is going to be heavy.

 

[Topgun510]

Alright, I think I'll just wait on these well driller/ installers to call back for now. I can't say I'm not half tempted to take a tow truck home and extend the boom and fab up something and see what the winches will do, but I don't like working on vehicles where others have molested so I need to keep my greasy hands off and see what the pros have to say. If I knew with a fair amount of certainty it wasn't steel piping I'd consider it. 135' has got to weigh a fair amount.

 

[Reach4]

http://www.whitewatermfg.net/pitless_adapter-brochure_11-15-08.pdf makes several references to 1060 but I don't see 1080.

 

[Topgun510]

I found them earlier today and called. They did take over the 1060 line but not the 1080.

 

[Topgun510]

Also, well guy called back and was confident that it was just really water logged. I didn't think so, I had just drained the tank a week ago to no avail. At any rate, he wanted me to drain the tank, blow it out and refill it. I did notice I could not get the system to hold any pressure. I have a good sized compressor and held the air nozzle at 80 psi for ten plus minutes and no change. Not sure if that is an indication of anything?? The tank in question is a galvanized tank, the size is comparable to a 40 gallon water heater if we are comparing external dimensions wise.

 

[Valveman]

Steel pipe is heavy, but the length is the problem. 21' joints need 23'-25' lift to clear one stick. I have some dogs that will grip the sides of steel pipe so you can pull a few feet at a time. But I only feel safe holding steel pipe by the couplings, which means 21' at a time.

 

[Valveman]

Also, well guy called back and was confident that it was just really water logged. I didn't think so, I had just drained the tank a week ago to no avail. At any rate, he wanted me to drain the tank, blow it out and refill it. I did notice I could not get the system to hold any pressure. I have a good sized compressor and held the air nozzle at 80 psi for ten plus minutes and no change. Not sure if that is an indication of anything?? The tank in question is a galvanized tank, the size is comparable to a 40 gallon water heater if we are comparing external dimensions wise.

Air will blow out the same leak in the pipe as water.

 

[Topgun510]

Air will blow out the same leak in the pipe as water.

Thats what I figured. It was well after 6:30 when the guy called back, so I'm sure it was already a long enough day for him. He mentioned something about two bleed valves in the pipe that are designed to add air into the tank each time the pump comes on that are likely plugged now and thought the tank was water logged because of it??

In the past, when the power went out, the system still held enough residual pressure that we would still have enough water pressure the next morning to wash up. Now, the moment the well pump goes off, the pressure is heads down to 0 psi very quickly. I just switched the breaker off and in 15 minutes we are down to 8 psi . I gather this is abnormal, correct? Is the well pump/check valve supposed to stay pressurized or should the tank itself stay pressurized?

 

[Valveman]

Yes it should stay pressurize and not drop off. You have a leak somewhere.

 

[Topgun510]

Yes it should stay pressurize and not drop off. You have a leak somewhere.

I've been doing tons of reading online, getting schooled on the subject. Is there something called a Drain Back Tee/ Bleed back valve that could possibly be my issue?

I turned the well pump on this morning. After the initial fill up of my tank, the on time was right around 45 seconds and then comes back on after 1:25 due to the pressure loss. For now I've just switched off the circuit breaker

 

[LLigetfa]

Since you say you have a galvanized tank, then you have to have some sort of air maker for it. The most common is a topside checkvalve with an air snifter on it and a bleeder valve down the hole. Some folks will use two bleeders, one lower than the other and put the checkvalve in the well.

That said, either your checkvalve has failed or you have a leak between the valve and the tank.

 

[Valveman]

He mentioned something about two bleed valves in the pipe that are designed to add air into the tank each time the pump comes on that are likely plugged now and thought the tank was water logged because of it?

Sounds like you have the double bleeder system down the well. But these bleeders should not drain the water from the tank if the above ground check valve is working. And if you don't have an above ground check valve, add one now because the one on top of the two bleeders apparently isn't working.

 

[Topgun510]

Sounds like you have the double bleeder system down the well. But these bleeders should not drain the water from the tank if the above ground check valve is working. And if you don't have an above ground check valve, add one now because the one on top of the two bleeders apparently isn't working.

Were the two bleed valves designed to prevent this drain back?

As far as adding a check valve now, can I just add one before the pressure tank?? I thought I read in a different post somewhere where an above ground check valve was illegal in Michigan.

Can I add the check valve along this run perhaps? Thanks for your time