Pump and pipe sizing

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Rdoug

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I’ll start this post by saying that I have always lived in “city” residential neighborhoods so water supply was never a real issue…that has changed. 5 hrs ago we bought a house that uses a pump house to supply city water to our home. The previous owner had past away so there were no instruction manuals on how this system worked so I’ve been slowly piecing it together..kinda.
The current problem is that I’m loosing pressure in my main water supply line coming from the pump house. This property was once used as a cattle farm so I’ve come to realize that this pump system also supplied water to 4 watering troughs scattered across the fields. Those are currently shut off and dry.
The supply line is pvc pipe that varies in sizes 3inch up hill then to 2 inch and 3/4 once at the house. Pump house is 2,500 ft from the house and there is a rise of 159ft in elevation. Current pressure at the meter was 70psi. I’ve decided to replace the line with poly pipe running a more direct route to the house and only supplying the house. We also have a 1inch supply line at the meter which we pay extra for..this was setup by previous owner. The house is large with 4 baths and a finished basement…So I guess my first question is what size line should I use? My current contractor is suggesting 1.5
My second question is would it be possible to not need the pump house at the bottom of the hill but have a pump and pressure tank system in the basement?
 

Valveman

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A 159' of elevation is the same as 68 PSI. To have 50 PSI at the house the pump must make at least 118 PSI. I would use a pump like a Goulds 18GB20, which is a 2HP. With a pressure switch set for 120/140 a CSV1A as comes in the PK1A kit can be set for 130 PSI, which will give you 60 PSI constant at the house. Even with a Cycle Stop Valve you will need a fairly large tank to give any draw down at that high pressure, and one that is rated for 150 PSI. I would use an 86 gallon size tank as in the Well-X-Trol model WX302. You can get a PK1ALT, which means less tank, and find a WX302 elsewhere for the lowest price you can find. The PK1ALT with a 120/140 heavy duty pressure switch has everything you will need to control the pump except a check valve. Use a metal, spring loaded check on the suction line to the pump.
 

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Hello Valveman, thanks for your reply. Again, these water pump systems are out of my wheelhouse so I’ll probably ask a few dumb questions.
So your saying at the pump house the correct setup is to have the main city water come in directly to a check valve then to the pump (2hp) and then to a PK1A kit with a CSV1A that can be set to 130psi? Does the well-x-tank go next in the pump house or should that be up at the house? Also, does the 1.5 water line sound correct.. will it give me the volume I need?
 

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If you put the pressure tank at the house, the pressure switch needs to be at the house. That means that you would need wires that go the distance. For that distance, those wires would probably just control a relay, which in turn controls the pump on/off.
 

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Like Reach says if the power for the pump comes from the house, then the pressure tank/pressure switch can be at the house and work at the regular 40/60 pressure. The CSV could then be either at the house set at 50 PSI, or down at the pump set at 130 PSI. Installing the CSV down at the pump would keep the extra back pressure off the 1.5" like, which yes should be large enough. But need to make sure the 1.5" pipe is rated for enough pressure whichever way you go. With the CSV down at the pump the pipe needs to be rated for 150 PSI. With the CSV up at the house the pipe would need to be rated for 200 PSI.

With the pressure switch/tank at the top of the hill, a smaller 10 gallon size pressure tank and standard pressure switch is all that is needed.
 

Rdoug

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Thanks again for the info… The new line will be rated for 200psi so we are good there. Our pump house has its own electric separate from the house I’ve attached some pics of that. In the pump house the water from the meter goes directly into the pump which has a 5hp motor then to the pressure switch. I know the 5hp is over kill it’s just what was here when we got the place. From there we have 3 well x tanks in the basement of the house. Not sure the exact size of those but I can figure that out. We have 3 stories above the basement to feed water to.
With the setup you have suggested at the pump house would I need anything in the basement…pressure tanks or booster pumps to push water to the upper floors?

Pump house pic
2679241E-DFD8-42A9-9546-7ACCE38E8938.jpeg
Basement of house
EFBC4F72-13B5-4AE4-BFB1-7A3DEBCAE839.jpeg
The pump mounted on top of the well x tank is not currently in use just fyi.
 

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At the pressure you need that pump may not be much overkill. I need the model number off the pump on the bottom, not the motor on top, so I can see what the pump can do. This is very similar to a pump system for a high rise building since you have three stories above the 159' of elevation rise. With three stories you really need about 70 PSI at the bottom of the house instead of 50 PSI.

All the controls and tank can be at the lower elevation. You do not need any tanks of controls up at the house. Being at the bottom of the elevation and three story house, the set pressure for the pressure switch needs to be 130/150. The Cycle Stop Valve model CSV3A2T will be needed for that size pump at that pressure and will need to be set just below 150 PSI. How much below 150 PSI depends on how many tanks you end up using. At 130/150 pressure an 86 gallon size tank only holds 10 gallons of water. With the CSV one of those tanks would be enough, two won't hurt anything, and you can use three tanks if you want and they are all still good. With all three tanks I would set the CSV to about 145 PSI, which will give you more than 1 minute of run time when filling the tanks. With two tanks the CSV would be set at about140 PSI.

With that set up the only thing that will see the high back pressure from the CSV is the short nipple between the pump and the CSV. Everything after will see the 130 to 150 PSI as the pressure switch is set. You will need a good check valve at the meter or at least somewhere before the pump. The CSV3A2T would be installed immediately after the pump, then a 130/150 pressure switch should be mounted close to one of the tanks, and that is all the controls you will need.
 

Rdoug

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At the pressure you need that pump may not be much overkill. I need the model number off the pump on the bottom, not the motor on top, so I can see what the pump can do. This is very similar to a pump system for a high rise building since you have three stories above the 159' of elevation rise. With three stories you really need about 70 PSI at the bottom of the house instead of 50 PSI.

All the controls and tank can be at the lower elevation. You do not need any tanks of controls up at the house. Being at the bottom of the elevation and three story house, the set pressure for the pressure switch needs to be 130/150. The Cycle Stop Valve model CSV3A2T will be needed for that size pump at that pressure and will need to be set just below 150 PSI. How much below 150 PSI depends on how many tanks you end up using. At 130/150 pressure an 86 gallon size tank only holds 10 gallons of water. With the CSV one of those tanks would be enough, two won't hurt anything, and you can use three tanks if you want and they are all still good. With all three tanks I would set the CSV to about 145 PSI, which will give you more than 1 minute of run time when filling the tanks. With two tanks the CSV would be set at about140 PSI.

With that set up the only thing that will see the high back pressure from the CSV is the short nipple between the pump and the CSV. Everything after will see the 130 to 150 PSI as the pressure switch is set. You will need a good check valve at the meter or at least somewhere before the pump. The CSV3A2T would be installed immediately after the pump, then a 130/150 pressure switch should be mounted close to one of the tanks, and that is all the controls you will need.
Thanks again valveman..
I’ve attached photos of everything I’m currently using in the pump house. I’ll probably end up buying new tanks but I need to measure and see what will actually fit. It might be possible to get two 86 gallon tanks in there. The digital pressure switch I’m using can be set to 150 psi max and whatever low end I need.

This is the pump model
9BD7F6B7-DBE2-453D-B6CC-4044284DEFF0.jpeg


Digital pressure switch 150psi max
B4DCC947-A6A2-4D97-A78A-FD233F599072.jpeg


Motor model # for the pump just in case you need it.
534A477C-84FB-4A04-A732-DBBF1056B8CA.jpeg
 

Valveman

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Used a lot of Mercoid switches, but never tried the digital one. Looks cool. Hope it is as dependable and bulletproof as the old mechanical one. Attached is the curve for that pump. Sorry, couldn't get in feet and GPM. But max head is 541' or 234 PSI. You can add to that whatever is coming in, but I wouldn't count of 70 when the pump is running. But at static, with 70 PSI coming in, that pump can build 304 PSI before the CSV. After looking at the curve for this 20 GPM pump I think the CSV1A-3GPM would be the best CSV for the application. It will have a minimum flow of about 3 GPM, which is enough to keep the pump cool. The CSV1A-3GPM will also work up to the 20 GPM or so this pump can produce. The -3GPM is not standard, but doesn't cost any extra. You just have to ask for the -3 GPM when ordering the CSV1A.

With this size CSV one of those 86 gallon size tanks is all you need.


Setting
CR3-17 curve jpeg.jpg
 

Rdoug

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Thanks again for the info.
The guy running the poly pipe refers to it as 1.5 which is the outside diameter but it’s actually 1.25
I know that is how pipe sizes go but just wanted to make sure that this size is still good with everything we have discussed?

Also, if I choose to replace the pump would a 1.5HP 10 GPM work?

With all the back pressure coming off the hill down toward the pump house the only check valve I need is between the pump and the main water meter? I just ask that because the original setup had a check valve in the basement of the house…which is no longer there.

Here is my shopping cart so far..let me know if you suggest any different products

E7E89EFE-E7BF-4D56-AACF-DB5AAF022383.jpeg
 

Valveman

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Yes, a 10 GPM, 1.5HP should work at 130/150 pressure. With the 1.5HP the CSV1A has sufficient minimum flow. With the 2HP I would use the CSV1A-3GPM.

Also, yes, the only check valve you want is the one on the pump.

I do not recognize the TK V81 tank? I would use the standard WX302.
 
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