PsideKick system drops to zero PSI instantly...

[CenterTree]

Finally got my system up and running (sort of). I have a 240' low yield well (1.5GPM) feeding into a holding tank in the basement via a cycle sensor and controlled shutoff via float switch.

All seems OK with the Cycle Sensor section on the well feed, as far as I can tell.
Float switch works good.

The setup is 50/70 PSI. 10 gal SideKick.

Problem I am having is that I get the submersible pump (inside the holding tank) to run using the "L" lever on the pressure switch. The pump will run about 1 minute pressurizing the PsideKick to 70PSI and the pressure gauge up stream of the cycle stop will set at 96 PSI while pump is running. All seems good. Pressure will then hold at 70 indefinitely. (both gauges).

I can run water and leave a faucet open forever and the subPump will stay on at 62PSI indefinitely. This is per design with the Cycle Stop Valve. The PROBLEM is if I stop using water, the pressure will drop slowly with each successive use of water until the pressure tank gauge reaches about 55PSI and then, like voodoo, the gauge drops to ZERO quickly.

Of course then their is no water available until I reset the pressure switch "L" lever and start over.

Please tell me someone has a "simple" solution. I've spent weeks on this system and we are soooooo close to having REAL water in out house. Any ideas?

I thought the pressure tank/gauge would stop at 50 then the subPump would restart the cycle.

( tank air PSI measured at 55.6 PSI) No leaks.





Don't laugh at my tilted gauge on the vertical pipe. That is just where it ending up landing when I tightened it to it's max.

 

[LLigetfa]

The PROBLEM is if I stop using water, the pressure will drop slowly with each successive use of water until the pressure tank gauge reaches about 55PSI and then, like voodoo, the gauge drops to ZERO quickly.

The air precharge is too high. Drop the precharge from 55.6 to 48 (2 PSI below cut-in).

 

[Sponsor]

 

[CenterTree]

Hmmm, so I had a hunch and pulled the cover off the pressure switch. It appears that I may have had a senior moment and inadvertently had my wires crossed. I had the power wires on the middle 2 poles and my pump wires on the outer posts.
I switched them and it seems to be working now.



I REALLY hope this is all it needed.

Too many late nights running wires, pipes, tanks, etc. Sometimes it's the simple things that make BIG trouble.

I'll monitor this tomorrow to see how it goes.

 

[LLigetfa]

Sounds like apophenia.

 

[Reach4]

I switched them and it seems to be working now.

That was not the problem. Electrically it did not matter, but power from the breaker is usually wired to the outside terminals as a convention.

Too much precharge was the problem, but the cutting out may not happen unless you use water at a faster rate.

With a Cycle Sensor, you would normally not want a pressure switch with a low pressure cutout. I would replace the switch or find how to do surgery on the pressure switch to remove that feature.

Really nice installation work.

 

[Bannerman]

To clarify, with the PT air precharge at 55 psi, the tank will contain 0 water below 55 psi. With no water remaining in the tank, the water system will instantly drop from 55 psi to 0 psi, causing the low shutoff pressure switch to trip off before the pump becomes activated.

As stated, reduce the PT air precharge to 48 psi. This will allow additional water storage to maintain water flow and pressure down to 48 psi, thereby allowing the pressure switch to activate the pump when the system pressure is reduced to 50 psi, which will also prevent the low pressure switch from tripping.

As recommended, the low pressure switch option is not needed and should be eliminated to reduce future operational issues.

 

[CenterTree]

You are correct

That was not the problem. Electrically it did not matter, but power from the breaker is usually wired to the outside terminals as a convention.

Too much precharge was the problem, but the cutting out may not happen unless you use water at a faster rate.

With a Cycle Sensor, you would normally not want a pressure switch with a low pressure cutout. I would replace the switch or find how to do surgery on the pressure switch to remove that feature.

Really nice installation work.

You are right,,,, that was not the problem. Still dropping pressure to zero after using water.

As far as the Cycle Sensor being the problem... I don't see how that could be an issue as the CS is on the well side and not associated with the pressure tank/switch in any way.

Maybe you meant "cycle Stop?? If so, then why are those CS systems sold with a low pressure cutout as an option in the kit?

I would like the low-cut-out to help shut down my tank's subPump if the water ever got too low.

 

[CenterTree]

The air precharge is too high. Drop the precharge from 55.6 to 48 (2 PSI below cut-in).

I will try it. I received the tank prefilled to 55 and figured that is what is needed due to the cycle stop valve.

 

[CenterTree]

To clarify, with the PT air precharge at 55 psi, the tank will contain 0 water below 55 psi. With no water remaining in the tank, the water system to instantly drop from 55 psi to 0 psi, causing the low shutoff pressure switch to trip off before the pump becomes activated.

As stated, reduce the PT air precharge to 48 psi. This will allow additional water storage to maintain water flow and pressure down to 48 psi, thereby allowing the pressure switch to activate the pump when the system pressure is reduced to 50 psi, which will also prevent the low pressure switch from tripping.

As recommended, the low pressure switch option is not needed and should be eliminated to reduce future operational issues.

OK thanks everyone for this info about the tank PSI. I just assumed the tank came prefilled with the proper amount to match my 50/70 cycle stop setup.

As far as the low pressure switch, I really hope to be able to keep it just as an added feature to shut down the subPump in the tank if the water level gets too low. (if the well pump ever stops pumping into the holding tank).

Will this setup work with this low pressure switch at all?

 

[Reach4]

Since the pressure switch is only for the holding tank and the Cycle Sensor is for the well, then my comments were wrong. You clearly described your system.

Another way to shut down the pressure pump when the tank runs dry is to use another float switch. That has the advantage that if the power goes out and returns, you don't have to use a lever to restart.

You may need to reduce the air precharge even lower if the symptom recurs.

 

[LLigetfa]

A low pressure cut-out is more nuisance than it's worth and will not always work. If you stop using water at the moment the pump sucks air, the pressure will not drop further and the pump will keep running and melt down. I would use a second float as reach4 suggested.

 

[CenterTree]

A low pressure cut-out is more nuisance than it's worth and will not always work. If you stop using water at the moment the pump sucks air, the pressure will not drop further and the pump will keep running and melt down. I would use a second float as reach4 suggested.

So with a second float switch to shut off the subPump in case of no water, where would it be wired in reference to the pump and the Pressure switch (which actually controls the pump in essence)?

Also, the subPump is a Grundfos SQ which is supposed to have a low water cutoff built in to it. Do you think that feature is enough to rely on?
It will be a pain to rig up yet another float inside that small/ narrow tank. (need to drill another hole in the top and run wiring, etc).

< GRUNDFOS SQ >

Features and benefits:
Dry-running protection
The pumps are protected against dry running. A value
of pcut-out ensures cut-out of the pump in case of water
shortage in the borehole, thus preventing a burnout of
the motor.
The dry-running protection is active after 30 seconds
of operation. The dry-running alarm is activated when
the load has been below the minimum power limit for
an accumulated time of 5 seconds.
Pcut-out is factory-set both for the SQ and SQE pumps.
As an extra protection, the electronic unit has a built-in
temperature sensor. When the temperature exceeds a
critical limit, the motor is cut out.

 

[Reach4]

So with a second float switch to shut off the subPump in case of no water, where would it be wired in reference to the pump and the Pressure switch (which actually controls the pump in essence)?

Assuming the float switch has enough current-carrying capacity, in series with one of the hots to the pump.

Also, the subPump is a Grundfos SQ which is supposed to have a low water cutoff built in to it. Do you think that feature is enough to rely on?

I would think so. I am not a pro.

It would be nice if you could get a clamp on bigger version of this: https://www.eetimes.com/non-contact-fluid-sensor-detects-liquid-through-transparent-tubing/

Another possibility that comes to mind would be to drop an insulated twisted pair, with about an inch of uninsulated separated wires at the end, down your tube. When the resistance gets higher than some threshold, then you inhibit the pump.

 

[Bannerman]

A further option is to use a Cycle Sensor with the tank pump.

I suspect without a detailed review of the pump design, the SQ internal pump protection likely works similar to a Cycle Sensor, that is, to shut off the pump when the current draw falls below a specific threshold as will occur when the pump begins to draw air.

 

[CenterTree]

Assuming the float switch has enough current-carrying capacity, in series with one of the hots to the pump.

I would think so. I am not a pro.

It would be nice if you could get a clamp on bigger version of this: https://www.eetimes.com/non-contact-fluid-sensor-detects-liquid-through-transparent-tubing/

Another possibility that comes to mind would be to drop an insulated twisted pair, with about an inch of uninsulated separated wires at the end, down your tube. When the resistance gets higher than some threshold, then you inhibit the pump.

Seems like they make "everything" for anything.

In the top of my site tube you can see a wire. It is a high water alarm. It is temporary at the moment and will be upgraded to this ASAP. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B097R2BSMR/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A139JYPKQIY0WD&psc=1.
I still need to improvise a cap to mold around the wire, but will do that when I get the newer version. The WIFI water sensor has BOTH a high water and a low water sensor. They tiny sensing units fit perfectly down the 1 inch site tube.

Of course these alarms do nothing to shutoff the pump, but they may help in some circumstances. They also would give very limited time to get to the disconnect switch. . But I like gizmos.

 

[CenterTree]

A further option is to use a Cycle Sensor with the tank pump.

I suspect without a detailed review of the pump design, the SQ internal pump protection likely works similar to a Cycle Sensor, that is, to shut off the pump when the current draw falls below a specific threshold as will occur when the pump begins to draw air.

Yes I agree. A big selling point for me on the SQ pump was this dry-run feature.
And similarly, the big selling point for my Cycle Sensor (on the well pump) was the same dry run feature. (and the "restart delay")

 

[Bannerman]

The WIFI water sensor has BOTH a high water and a low water sensor.

You may want to rethink this. What happens if when your WIFI fails?

You can't beat the reliability of hard wired controls. As all of your equipment appears to be located within one area, I anticipate wiring distance will not be an issue.

 

[VAWellDriller]

SQ also has a soft start feature...so you may need to drop the tank precharge a little more than normal to give some extra time for that to get going. I install a lot of SQ and this can be an issue if you don't know about it.

 

[Valveman]

The PK1A kit ordered for 50/70 should have come with 45 PSI air in the tank. Sorry if it was a bit high. But like VA said the SQ pump takes 5 seconds to start, so you really need about 40 PSI air in the tank instead. The Cycle Sensor will shut the pump off when it is running dry, It will work with a well pump and/or the booster pump. You can also use a second float switch in the storage tank to keep the booster from running dry. With either the Cycle Sensor or the additional float switch you will not need the low pressure cut off switch, which are known to give the nuisance trips you desrcibe.

 

[CenterTree]

SQ also has a soft start feature...so you may need to drop the tank precharge a little more than normal to give some extra time for that to get going. I install a lot of SQ and this can be an issue if you don't know about it.

OK good to know. So I did lower the tank charge to 48. Still had intermittent pressure drops. Not every cycle though. Then I lowered it to 45. Still dropping about half the time.

Will lower it even more tonight.

How far is too low? At what point should I not go lower than with my 50/70 switch?