Pressure reducing valve, should be put before water presure tank or after pressure water tank

[jianhuayegreentree]

Hi, I am new here. Try to install new booster pump to add water pressure to my city water. City water only have about 30psi and I need to boost up to 60 psi. I sized a pressure tank of 20 gallon and pump booost the pressure to 60psi or more. So I want to add a pressure rducing valve. should I add between the pressure tank and booster pump or put after pressure tank? Thanks for your help.

 

[Valveman]

Why would you want to boost the pressure then use a valve to reduce the pressure down again. To get 60 PSI at the house you need a boost pump with a 50/70 pressure switch. The switch will shut the pump off at 70 PSI and you don't need a reducing valve. The pump also doesn't care if there is 30 or 60 coming into it, so a reducing valve on the inlet is also not needed. A 20 gallon size pressure tank is also a waste of money and space. What you do need a a regular shallow well jet pump and a PK1A for a booster system instead of any of those variable speed or flow controlled units that are made to sell, not to last.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[jianhuayegreentree]

@Valveman , thanks for your response. I did not know you repsonded to my post earlier as I could not find my post. Finally today I use advanced search to find my post. My neighbor use the Davey BT14-30 pump and I see how his setup. The reason I use the reducing valve is I don't want the pump to boost too much pressure. My city water is at 28psi. I have installed the system today and found the pump does boost the pressure over 60psi. And my reducing valve does the job to control the pressure. I found 55 psi is best for my tankless toilet, not too strong and too weak. The reducing valve does the trick to keep pressure stable and pressure tank works to keep pressure not fluctulate that much if not much water use. But it seems that Davey pump is not doing what it is suppose to do. It supposed to have 20% pressure cutoff to start the pump. But my test shows that less than 2 quart of water used and no noticeble pressure drop will trig the pump to start. And after the pump starts it will run about three miniutes then stop which is different from neighbor's Davey pump. Not sure why it has to run three minitues as there is no noticebale pressure change. Maybe the controller is defective.

Valveman, you are right I probabaly just need a shallow Wet Jet pump with 40-60 psi pressure switch. Hope to know you better to just get the P1AK. Any suggestion for a Wet Jet pump at this moment as I already build up the piping system ( I can switch one of the water pressure meter with 40/60 pressure swith that comes with the tee) (see inserted photo). Thanks.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah almost every pump manufacturer has one of those little "tankless flow control" devices that stick up from the discharge of the pump. They are made to be easy to install, as they shorten the pump life and need to be installed often. Installed often is the most important design characteristic pump companies use today.

The reason is has to stick up from the pump is it has a flow switch inside. Anytime the flow starts there is enough to lift the little flow switch and the pump comes on. It doesn't matter how big a tank you have. If it leaks down slowly, there is a pressure switch that will also start the pump, but it only works with a very small leak, not an open faucet. Then once the flow switch drops when no more water is being used, there is a timer that makes the pump stay on for another minute or three, to keep the pump from cycling on and off rapidly. These devices have no control over the pressure and the house pressure is just the max the pump can build, PLUS the added pressure coming into the pump. Adding a relief valve is a bandaid for this problem, but also keeps the pressure tank from doing anything. Only low head cheap pumps will work with that device as a good jet pump will build too much pressure and a relief valve would ALWAYS be needed.

Working a pump at deadhead pressure with a timed off setting is not good for any pump. But just like all the others with a "Presscontrol" type device as control, they are easy to replace and you can just pick up a new one every year or two.

A good jet pump like a J10S with a PK1A to control might last 30-50 years, and that is certainly not good for the pump
business.

 

[jianhuayegreentree]

Thanks Valveman for your help. I will keep in mind your suggestion and may proceed with the plan.

 

[ZeroPPM-RO]

Try putting your pressure regulator after the booster pump before the pressure tank see what happens. Terry might be able to figure the consequences when the flow goes only one direction...

 

[erikww67]

Why would you want to boost the pressure then use a valve to reduce the pressure down again. To get 60 PSI at the house you need a boost pump with a 50/70 pressure switch. The switch will shut the pump off at 70 PSI and you don't need a reducing valve. The pump also doesn't care if there is 30 or 60 coming into it, so a reducing valve on the inlet is also not needed. A 20 gallon size pressure tank is also a waste of money and space. What you do need a a regular shallow well jet pump and a PK1A for a booster system instead of any of those variable speed or flow controlled units that are made to sell, not to last.

View attachment 101082

 

[erikww67]

Valveman, I stumbled upon this thread online searching for a reliable straight forward economical long-lasting domestic water main pressure booster system. My water pressure is abysmal at ~26-28 PSI. I ordered the J10S 1HP on eBay and PK1A kit on Cycle Stop Valves and waiting for delivery, total $1210, and searching for flat fee plumber to quote and install the system, if reasonable. The larger family owned business wanted $4500+ just for labor and additional electrical parts: cable, breaker, conduit. They wanted to sell me an expensive VFD system instead like you knew they would $5000+!! I may have to attempt install system myself if I'm unable to find a willing and able plumber. What circuit cable breaker are required for this pump, 115/230V, 25 amp breaker, 10/3 or 12/3? Thanks

 

[Bannerman]

erikww67: Do you have a question?

 

[Valveman]

Valveman, I stumbled upon this thread online searching for a reliable straight forward economical long-lasting domestic water main pressure booster system. My water pressure is abysmal at ~26-28 PSI. I ordered the J10S 1HP on eBay and PK1A kit on Cycle Stop Valves and waiting for delivery, total $1210, and searching for flat fee plumber to quote and install the system, if reasonable. The larger family owned business wanted $4500+ just for labor and additional electrical parts: cable, breaker, conduit. They wanted to sell me an expensive VFD system instead like you knew they would $5000+!! I may have to attempt install system myself if I'm unable to find a willing and able plumber. What circuit cable breaker are required for this pump, 115/230V, 25 amp breaker, 10/3 or 12/3? Thanks

It depends on how long the electric line will be. But #12 is good for a 1HP up to 400' away from the service. And sorry but yes, that is exactly why so many people are doing it themselves these days. Glad to talk you or a plumber through the install as it is not hard to do. Might be able to install the equipment yourself and call an electrician to pull wires to the pump and install a breaker if there is not already one available.

 

[Reach4]

https://aquascience.net/goulds-j10s-1hp-single-nose-shallow-well-jet-pump "Goulds Jet Pump Installation"

says to use a 20 amp 2-pole breaker for 230 (240) volts (preferred).

30 amp single pole breaker if you set the pump to 115 volts.... assuming I read correctly.

 

[erikww67]

It depends on how long the electric line will be. But #12 is good for a 1HP up to 400' away from the service. And sorry but yes, that is exactly why so many people are doing it themselves these days. Glad to talk you or a plumber through the install as it is not hard to do. Might be able to install the equipment yourself and call an electrician to pull wires to the pump and install a breaker if there is not already one available.

There is no pulling of wires other than through metal conduit on the basement wall. This is an easy accessible open basement installation, it's seems ridiculously easy for a plumber and hopefully for me. The 12/3 cable through a metal conduit will literally need to transverse 15-20' from the electrical service to the pump. I'm just uncertain and uneasy with electrical hookups at the breaker box, but I could get advice. Really appreciate your offer for walk through assistance that's great to know. Now, I'm uncertain why this system needs a pressure reducing valve before or after the pressure tank as suggested by Bannerman? Why increase pressure from the main water supply with the jet pump when the pressure tank has a 50/70 switch set at 60 PSI and reduce pressure it before or after the pressure tank?

It depends on how long the electric line will be. But #12 is good for a 1HP up to 400' away from the service. And sorry but yes, that is exactly why so many people are doing it themselves these days. Glad to talk you or a plumber through the install as it is not hard to do. Might be able to install the equipment yourself and call an electrician to pull wires to the pump and install a breaker if there is not already one available.

It depends on how long the electric line will be. But #12 is good for a 1HP up to 400' away from the service. And sorry but yes, that is exactly why so many people are doing it themselves these days. Glad to talk you or a plumber through the install as it is not hard to do. Might be able to install the equipment yourself and call an electrician to pull wires to the pump and install a breaker if there is not already one available.

 

[erikww67]

erikww67: Do you have a question?

You had suggested the need for a pressure reducing valve before or after the pressure tank - why? I can't find your thread to reply, only this one.

 

[Bannerman]

erikww67: Do you have a question?

I had asked this because your 1st post only quoted Valveman's comment, but included no question or comment from you. I did not see your 2nd post until today.

You had suggested the need for a pressure reducing valve before or after the pressure tank - why?

I had not posted any prior suggestions or comments within this thread.

My water pressure is abysmal at ~26-28 PSI.

When measuring the pressure in your home's plumbing with a pressure gauge, was that performed while no water was being utilized (static pressure), or while there was a certain rate of consumption occurring at the same time?

Assuming your water source is municipal, and assuming the 26-28 psi is occuring while water is flowing, is there any possibility that a supply valve such as the municipal curb stop, is partially closed, thereby restricting flow? We have had prior posters where this had specifically occured.

Is there a further possibility there maybe a Pressure Reducing/Regulating valve installed, so as to reduce the supply pressure prior to your home? If so, perhaps the PRV requires repair or adjustment, to increase the supply pressure, typically to ~60 psi.

I ordered the J10S 1HP on eBay and PK1A kit on Cycle Stop Valves

In using a pump and PK1 Cycle Stop Valve kit, no additional pressure reducing valve would be needed or utilized.

Why increase pressure from the main water supply with the jet pump when the pressure tank has a 50/70 switch set at 60 PSI and reduce pressure it before or after the pressure tank?

A CSV, such as included with the PK1A kit, would be located after the pump, but before the Pressure tank and Pressure Switch. Although a CSV will function similar to a pressure regulating valve, a CSV is designed with additional capabilities needed for controlling the flow rate and pressure supplied directly by a pump.

For a.standard pressure tank and 50/70 pressure switch without a CSV, the pressure switch will activate the pump when the water pressure becomes reduced to 50 psi. Once the pump is activated, it will cause the pressure to rise, but if less water is being consumed than the pump is capable of supplying, the additional flow capacity will enter the pressure tank, causing the pressure to eventually rise to 70, thereby resulting in the pressure switch shutting off the pump. As water continues to be consumed, the pressure will again be reduced, and this ON/OFF cycling will again occur and will continue to occur for the entire remaining time water continues to be consumed.

With this cycling, the water pressure to fixtures will be constantly either rising or falling by 20 psi, and the pump will continually cycle ON/OFF, which will shorten the lifespan of the pump, pressure switch & pressure tank. A larger pressure tank will reduce the cycling frequency, but will not stop cycling from occuring.

A CSV will reduce the supply rate from the pump to match the rate water is actually being consumed. With a PK1A kit equipped with a 50/70 pressure switch, the pump will become activated at 50 psi, just as before, but the CSV will restrict flow to maintain 60 psi downstream, regardless of whether 1 faucet is flowing, or multiple faucets. Although the pressure tank will become half filled to 60 psi, the constant regulated 60 psi after the CSV will signify, no water will further enter the pressure tank, but will instead be flowing 100% to the fixture(s) consuming water.

Because the flow rate from the pump will match the rate water is actually being consumed, the system pressure will remain constant @ 60 psi, and the pump will continue to operate non-stop without cycling, for the entire remaining time water continues to be consumed at a rate exceeding 1 GPM.

Once water is no longer being consumed, the CSV will continue to permit 1 GPM to pass through, thereby causing the remaining pressure tank capacity to become filled @ 1gpm until the pressure rises to 70 psi whereby the pressure switch will shut off the pump.

 

[erikww67]

Bannerman, wow, thank you for your responses time and thorough explanations - including the detailed explanation of CSV - forum is amazing!

In reply to your questions:

1) My initial question on the first post: What circuit cable breaker are required for this pump, 115/230V, 25 amp breaker, 10/3 or 12/3? Valveman answered it, thanks.

2) The water source is municipal. When I measured water pressure at the hose bib only the hose bib valve was turned on and the water was flowing to the pressure guage. I'm unaware of any possibility that the supply valve/municipal curb stop is partially closed. Both neighbors beside me have the same very low water pressure issue and I'm assuming theirs is the same. I have called the water company and they sent out a technician and I showed him the pressure at the front hose bib and they are supplying water pressure at the main that is legal by code which I belive is 20-25 psi. The neighborhood and water mains are old, they can't increase pressure or blow out the pipes, they check for leaks frequently as there has been incidents, and we are at a high elevation above the pumping station in town. There is no PRV installed.

A local plumber called me today and has installed a similar system as the J10S jet pump and CSV1A kit and he's coming out Monday, March 10th, 10 AM to look at the equipment and installation. I'll keep you posted as to if they're willing & able to installed the system for reasonable price. Question: If this system can be installed in 2-4 hours, what is the maximum which I should reasonablly pay for the installation? Thank you!

 

[Valveman]

I can find a J10S for about 700 bucks. The PK1A is $535. Add another 200-300 bucks for pipe and fittings and you are at maybe $1600.00 to DIY. To have the system installed by a licensed, insured, legitimate plumber or pump professional should cost about twice that price. I have no problem with professional contractors making good money when they do a good job. Even at double the DIY price, contractors are not getting rich on jobs like this.

 

[Bannerman]

I measured water pressure at the hose bib only the hose bib valve was turned on and the water was flowing to the pressure guage.

Water does not flow through a pressure gauge, but the force of the pressure only causes a diaphragm within the gauge to become deflected in direct relation to the incoming pressure, as indicated by the gauge pointer needle.

Because the gauge indicated 25 psi while no water was flowing anywhere in your home, you measured the static pressure, which indicates the municipal pressure supplied to your home, regardless of whether a valve was partially closed or not.

If opening a faucet anywhere in the home resulted in a significant pressure drop below the static pressure, I would then suspect a flow restriction such as a partially partially closed curb stop or main valve.