Point me to Help@!

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers' started by ruddyone, Jan 6, 2015.

  1. ruddyone

    ruddyone New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Location:
    Illinois
    Hello -

    Looks like a great site here. I purchase a Fleck 7000 SXT 64,000 grain on demand softener. I installed it this weekend and all seems to be working ok. But, the manual is very slim on instructions. There are a bunch of programing options and I have no idea if it is set correctly. I searched this forum for a while but can't find a guide.

    Can someone point me to a guide or give me a clue what should be programed?

    Some info:
    city water, hardness of 25. Iron = max of .56ppm, manganese is 13ppb
    5 people in the house maybe 60 gallons/day (I'm guessing, my kids are 6, 8 and 10)

    Here's the details I have on the setup:
    • Fleck 7000 On Demand Metered Control
    • 2.0 Cu. Ft. High Capacity Resin 8% Crosslink
    • 12x48 Resin Tank
    • 18x33 Brine Tank
    • Salt Grid
    • BLFC = 0.125
    System Specifications:
    • Service Flow Rate: 18 GPM @ 15 psi drop
    • Required Backwash Rate: 3.5 gpm
    • Regeneration Type: Meter Initiated
    Thanks!

    Nate
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    I plugged your numbers into Gary Slusser's calculator. http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php

    Your softener is 2.00 cu. ft. It thinks you should have gotten a bigger unit, or it thinks your unit is sized for 3 people, or 5 people who use 35 gallons per day. FYI, 13 ppb is 0.013 ppm. Not a big deal. You will regen more often than every week. That's not all bad.

    My thinking would be to do 8 pounds of salt/cubic ft, or 16 pounds each regen. Your regen would be about every 3 or 4 days if you use as much water as you forecast.

    To do 16 pounds of salt, you need to use 5.33 gallons of water. If your BLFC is 0.5 gal/min, your BF would be 11 minutes. If BLFC is 0.25, BF would be 21 or 22 minutes. Your capacity C= 48000. Your compensated hardness is
    27.266, so make H=27 or H=28.


    Leave the other settings as they were sent to you, I would think. If there are some settings that bother you, say so.

    Maybe somebody will have more and/or different info for you. Post the BLFC number if you would like that. The 8 pounds is a compromise choice. You did not help your cause with your cryptic subject.

    "Can someone point me to a guide or give me a clue what should be programed?"
    http://www.pentairaqua.com/Files/KnowledgeBase/ItemDownload/en/42775 Rev D.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
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  4. ruddyone

    ruddyone New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Location:
    Illinois
    IGNORE THIS POST:

    Dang it. I just looked at that calculator and then looked up the mfg. part info and the tank is a little small. It is actually 2.8 cu. ft. That's very annoying.

    So, the impact is basically that it will have to run more often though. Is that correct? Or, is there a bigger issue?

    Thanks,

    Nate
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  5. ruddyone

    ruddyone New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Location:
    Illinois
    I guess that brings up another question though. If when I purchased it, it said 64,000 grains is that still correct? Is the 2.8 cu. ft. a different measurement?
     
  6. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    It is an industry standard which is misleading. The theory is that if you regenerate with 15 pounds of salt for each cubic ft, you can get 32,000 grains of softening per cubic ft. However if you use less salt, you get more efficiency. So using, 30 pounds of salt, you can get maybe 64,ooo grains (or 60,000 would be a better number) for each regen. But with 16 pounds, you can get 48,000 grains -- much more efficient. You can get 40,000 grains with 12 pounds of salt. Now if it turns out that the extra 8000 grains would let you go another day or two before regenerating, then the 16 would be worth it over the 12. But maybe not... that is where it gets complicated. You could change C to 40000 and use BF=8 minutes to get your 12 pound (6 pounds per cuft). That might work better for you. Maybe not. If your remaining capacity is less than the reserve capacity at 2 AM (default time) the softener will regen. Otherwise it goes another day and checks at 2 AM again.

    Into the calculator put in 5 people at 35 gallons per day. That will then recommend a 2 cuft softener. Then see the table with the choices farther down the page. With iron present, you don't want to go too low of salt use, from what I understand.
     
  7. ruddyone

    ruddyone New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Location:
    Illinois
    Just got home and checked. The sticker on the back says the BLFC is 0.125
     
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    I see you have edited the description to show 2.8 cuft of resin on a softener rated "64,000". That would be unusual. It would be nice.

    Do you have a 12" x 52" or 13" x 54" tank, or what?
     
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    a 12x48 tank is rated for 1.7 cu. ft. of resin, some companies stuff more into them. The total tank volume is 2.75 cu. ft. Softeners use a freeboard of 50% of the resin height, and the resin capacity is based on the tank height minus the top and bottom domes. The dome volume on that tank is approximately .13 cu. ft. per dome, the cu. ft. per inch of tank height (not including the domes ) is approximately .065.

    Assuming 38" of sidewall, 5" domes, ... you can do the math from there.

    Your system may be stuffed with 2.0 Cu. Ft. or resin, it should be ok, just not proper. Your actual capacity is more like 40,000 grains assuming a regeneration of 6 pounds of salt per cubic foot of resin.
     
  10. ruddyone

    ruddyone New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Location:
    Illinois
    Ok, I'm sure I don't know nearly as much as you guys. What I purchased was marketed as a Fleck 7000 SXT 64,000 grain system. Hopefully I wasn't duped.

    Attached are the stickers from the back. The tank is 12x49 and is model number: CH30646. On the Pentair website it says that model is a 2.8 cu. ft. (unless I'm reading it wrong) LINK HERE

    So, what do you think? I guess in the end, I pretty much need to know that so I can calculate the correct minutes for each cycle correct?




    Thanks Much,

    Nate
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2020
  11. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Initially with BLFC=0.25, I would use
    C=48,000
    BF=43
    H=28

    If it is convenient, you could try to see if much resin gets washed out in the first few backwashes. Maybe it will be held in by a top basket.
     
  12. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    The 2.8 cu/ft you're seeing, is the volume capacity of the resin tank as your link shows the tank specifications. Softeners are never filled as space is required to 'expand' the resin, to allow it to be lifted to permit circulation during backwash. The empty space above the resin is as Dittohead refers, called freeboard, which is usually sized to be 50% of the installed resin volume.

    A 64,000 grain softener will contain 2 cu/ft of resin as resin has 32,000 grains/cu/ft softening capacity when newly installed.

    As Dittohead mentioned, your softener may be stuffed (ie: too much resin for the tank size) in consideration to 50% freeboard whereby 2 cu/ft of resin should be normally installed in a resin tank with ~3 cu/ft of volume.

    When calculating the total capacity of a softener in the real world, 30,000 grains/cu/ft is most often assumed as some resin will become broken over time and the broken pieces will be flushed to drain. In addition, as hard water is utilized for regeneration, some softening capacity will be consumed during regeneration so 30K grains/cu/ft total capacity is usually a good rule of thumb.

    When the total softening capacity has been consumed, 15+ lbs of salt per cu/ft is required to regenerate. That is an inefficient use of salt as it calculates to only 2000 grains per pound. Efficiency can be increased by setting the usable capacity to a smaller number (ie: regenerating when 2/3 or 3/4 of the total capacity has been consumed) while also reducing the amount of salt to regenerate.

    For example, your 2 cu/ft (60K grain) softener when programmed to regenerate after 48K grains is consumed, would require only 16 total lbs of salt (8 lbs/cu/ft) to regenerate, thereby delivering a much better efficiency of 3000 grains per pound.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  13. ruddyone

    ruddyone New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Location:
    Illinois
    Ah, ok. Now its all becoming clear. Thanks. Looks like I got too small of a tank so can't be as efficient. Right?

    So, here are the settings I'm thinking to use then. Can you guys check it?

    DF=GAL
    VT=dF2b
    CT=Fd
    C=48,000
    H=28
    RS=rc
    RC=150
    DO=14
    RT=2:00
    B1= (do i adjust this?)
    BD= (do i adjust this?)
    B2= (do i adjust this?)
    RR= (do i adjust this?)
    BF=43
    FM=t1.2
     
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    The one that will want some further attention for your specific case is RS and then either SF (a percent) or RC (gallons to hold in reserve for last day). Initially one way I am thinking you could do is to use RS=SF and SF=25. For using RS=rc, and RC=150, that means Fixed Reserve Capacity - expressed as a gallon volume to be held as a reserve. So if you really use 240 gallons per day, 150 would be low. So maybe RS=rc, and RC=200 may be adequate-- depending on your daily use. Maybe 240 would be the right number. Or maybe your daily use will end up being less than 150.

    You can play with those numbers after you get some experience. The thinking is that if you typically need to regen every 4 days, when you have less than 25% of capacity left at 2AM, then you are probable to not have enough capacity left to wait until the next 2AM. Now you may find that you use less water, and you could drop the SF number to 20% or whatever. I would get your Hach 5B test so that you can see if you are getting significant hardness before regens. A little bleed through is not tragic. If you are having more use due to visitors, you can always trigger an early regeneration. Queueing a Regeneration to happen at 2AM:
    1. Press the Extra Cycle button. The service icon will flsh to indicate that a regeneration is queued.
    2. To cancel a queued regeneration, press the Extra Cycle button.
    Regenerating Immediately:
    Press and hold the Extra Cycle button for five seconds.

    If you are a night person, 2 AM may be too early for your regens. Maybe select to regen at 3:30AM (RT=3:30). Figure it takes roughly 2 hours. Also note that the clock does not automatically adjust for daylight time, so you could pick a time that would work in both seasons, even if you leave the clock time in standard time.

    See these posts for some example numbers. They are not the same size as your softener, but those other numbers are not so sensitive to size and hardness I am thinking. They can be affected by how expensive/rare water is in your area. In a desert, some times may be minimized to minimize water use.

    https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-numbers-for-a-new-install.59549/#post-441260

    https://terrylove.com/forums/index....nd-with-new-fleck-7000-stx.50095/#post-367794

    https://terrylove.com/forums/index....softner-system-not-working.49335/#post-362654
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
    ruddyone likes this.
  15. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The 00 injector requires an extended regen time and probably should be larger. Different certifications require changes in the injector but most consider a 15 minute draw time to remove the brine from the brine tank to be normal. The 00 injector draws at a .175 GPM rate, so if you have a 16 pound salt setting (5.35 gallons of water) you would need 30+ minutes to draw the brine out of the salt tank. You can extend the brine slow rinse to accommodate this and technically, it will probably give you a slightly higher efficiency. Assuming your valve is set as the pictures show, I would program it as follows.

    1: set time to 12:01 P.M.
    2: push and release the “regen” button
    3: push and hold ^ v buttons for 7 seconds to enter master program mode
    Push “regen” button between each step to get to next step
    4: DF set to Gal,
    5: VT set to dF2b,

    6: CT set to Fd
    7: C Set to 48.0

    8: H set to 26
    9: RS set to SF
    10: sf set to 15
    11: DO set 14
    12: RT set to 2:00
    13: B1 set to 5
    14: BD set to 90
    15: B2 set to 5
    16: RR set to 5
    17: BF set to 44 for .125 BLFC
    18: FM set to t1.2
     
    ruddyone likes this.
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