PNW Water Treatment Questions & Failed Attempt

[Scotty B]

I'll try to make this succinct, I have read so many posts here and other locations about similar issues but am hoping for specific advice.

Moved in to rural property that had a Kenetico single tank "media" filter and dual tank "softener" installed, no information on them since it was a foreclosure. Without doing anything this worked for some time, just adding salt to the tank. After a while it stopped working and I think the very "mechanical" valve was failing on the media tank. Also had two canister filters after the softener, not sure what should have been in those.

We replaced it with a system from one of the larger online sellers, originally they sent a Fleck 7000 valve on a 1.5 cf tank of manganese dioxide and chemsorb, before that a contact tank and before that chlorine injection. When this failed to perform they added in soda ash injection after the chlorine and a 2nd media filter with activated carbon and chemsorb (and changed to their own "branded" air injection backwashing heads). After many moons of trying to make this work and not being able to drink our water I am ready to move on. The media has "fouled", it has been hard to get the pH up with soda ash so I've resorted to potash, which is doing the trick. I have to use 12% chlorine and it's expensive.

I have IRB and possibly SRB. I believe right now the chlorine probably deals with that but maybe it is fouling the media. I've had to take out the media and clean it by hand but the dealer who sold all this is not clear in their instructions and not comprehensive in their follow-through so a lot of the time I am left to try and figure it out on my own. The contact tank has a huge buildup of brown sludge constantly, even after a day it's a decent amount. The post 5 micron filter that we used to have installed constantly turned bright orange/brown with sludge. I am assuming this sludge is part of the issue. The water is clear from the well and stinks of sulfur so I believe this is the non-oxidized iron that needs an oxidizer to pull it out (like chlorine and the air gap tank/heads). Why it isn't working properly, I don't know.

Replacing this equipment is happening either way, I am getting the company to take it back and recoup some of my costs. The recommendation from other places is a Katalox Light vortec tank 2cf with a Fleck 2510SXT AIO head and a 64k grain Fleck 9100SXT softener. We have around 13gpm from the well and two 190 gallon pressure tanks on a 40/60 psi valve.

One company suggested UV for the iron bacteria and putting the 5 micro after the well. I'm reading other places that I need some sort of disinfectant or bacteriacide (like chlorine or sodium peroxide) as UV is not 100% effective or consistent and costly. I am reading that Katalox would work well with an oxidizer and that the softener should help with the iron as well. They also suggest that Katalox would work on it's own for my water test without any oxidizer.

Attached are some labs I had done back when we installed the current system. Iron and manganese are the top issues most people seem to treat. Here are the bacteria test vials (https://photos.app.goo.gl/egrPvYBhYEVqEtxI2) to confirm the results. I believe these are from Hach.

Really looking for anyone who can give me feedback on what I should be doing. I have plenty of pressure for backwashing, as far as I know, and both tanks have DLFCs but I forget exact GPM right now.

Here are the items from one supplier:
https://www.midatlanticwater.net/sh...ystems/fleck-aio2510-iron-filter-with-katalox
https://www.midatlanticwater.net/sh...win-tank?attribute_grain-capacity=w-64k-grain
https://www.midatlanticwater.net/sh...er-disinfection-systems/viqua-vh410-uv-system

Another:
http://www.aquascience.net/64-000-g...48-tanks-fleck-9100-sxt-digital-control-valve
http://www.aquascience.net/fleck-12-x-52-katalox-filter-with-fleck-2510-sxt-ocs (they don't offer the larger tank in their package but they do have it, so I think I could do 2.5cf with them)

Also, I was reading that a dual tank softener is only using one tank at a time. If so is that only really so that there is zero "downtime"? If this is regenerating during the wee hours why would it matter? Initially we had salty water sometimes with the original kinetico so we were weary of a solution that did not have dual tanks (I wanted dual filter tanks too, so one could backwash at a time) but now I am not sure. Does it really matter? Is it better to spread the usage out over two smaller tanks versus one larger? Is the 64k over two tanks really 32k at a time?

Any help?

 

[Reach4]

Your water test is odd. 10.8 ppm of iron, but also you have 0.250 mg/L residual chlorine. Does that mean you have a pellet dropper putting chlorine into the well or a chlorine injector injecting chlorine before the sample port? If so, I think that water test is not as meaningful as it should be.

I did not read all of your materials.

Also, I was reading that a dual tank softener is only using one tank at a time. If so is that only really so that there is zero "downtime"? If this is regenerating during the wee hours why would it matter? Initially we had salty water sometimes with the original kinetico so we were weary of a solution that did not have dual tanks (I wanted dual filter tanks too, so one could backwash at a time) but now I am not sure. Does it really matter? Is it better to spread the usage out over two smaller tanks versus one larger? Is the 64k over two tanks really 32k at a time?

Yes.

When you use KL or or other iron media, you have to take into account how much water your pump can produce. That can be less than what the well can produces. 2 cuft of KL should have about 10 or 11 gpm of backwash.

 

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[ditttohead]

I see a lot of bad advice from your current and previous sources. Unfortunately a lot of online dealers are just that. Companies that have little real world experience but suddenly become experts in water treatment. They also get themselves into the mindset that their "unique and amazing" way of treating water is the best way. As you have learned this is a recipe for failure.

Since you have already had to failed attempts at water treatment have you considered paying a little extra and having a local company that is well versed in your local water? Unfortunately this is not a guarantee since many local companies also fall into the same mindset but you will at least have the ability to hold the company accountable if they are local.

All that being said, I would lean toward a basic solution that is basically a catch all design.

Hydra to catch bugs, twigs, etc.

maybe a backwashing calcite filter to help raise the pH and catch some of the iron and since your hardness levels are high anyway.
Katalox light with 5810XTR2 with integrated meter to control an external pulse counting pump
Use Chlorine with a baffled contact tank. ahead of the KL and/or carbon system. The contact tank should have an automated blowdown since you are currently getting an excessive amount of buildup quickly.
Lastly a softener.

You could add a couple of large filters in the mix but this is already getting very costly. ou can certainly start with a few items then add them as needed.

The real problem is too many companies have a strange mindset that since "their" design worked a bunch of times, it will always work. Water is far too complex. If companies would stop chasing the lowest price solutions or at least give the customer a quote that includes the possible add ons that may be needed down the road to improve performance we would see a lot less "failures". This is simply a problem of inexperience in this industry. Even guys with 30 years of so called experience tend to fall into the trap of water is simple to treat.

 

[Scotty B]

Thanks!

I see a lot of bad advice from your current and previous sources. Unfortunately a lot of online dealers are just that. Companies that have little real world experience but suddenly become experts in water treatment. They also get themselves into the mindset that their "unique and amazing" way of treating water is the best way. As you have learned this is a recipe for failure.

The one local company I could get to come out and quote was one who originally suggested katalox which is what lead me back online and trying to learn as much as I could about the possible options. I definitely agree with your sentiment that there are so many parameters that make up water how could one solution solve them all (even in a category like "iron"). The first supplier above amended their proposal to suggest I should keep the chlorination after speaking with their Katalox rep. That falls inline with what I found give my water makeup. They also suggested putting the 5 micron before this (similar to your suggestion I believe). They did not say contact tank (but I have one and could keep it or replace with baffled with auto blowdown (which would be nice for me). I'll look in to the products you suggest specifically so I can get an idea of the differences in what they suggested. The problem I have with them right now is their somewhat unprofessional and incomplete interactions. Replies are super fast but not detailed and that makes me leery for issues down the line. The other dealer still hasn't responded.

The local place that came out suggested Katalox and softener for around $3k which, with install, is probably around the same price as online. I worry that the local place is locked in to a product as much as any other small place and not with a wide range of knowledge versus an online place that sells many reputable options that can help custom make a system. But still not sure I found the best place to go, going to look at your catalog.

 

[Scotty B]

Your water test is odd. 10.8 ppm of iron, but also you have 0.250 mg/L residual chlorine. Does that mean you have a pellet dropper putting chlorine into the well or a chlorine injector injecting chlorine before the sample port? If so, I think that water test is not as meaningful as it should be.

I did not read all of your materials.


Yes.

When you use KL or or other iron media, you have to take into account how much water your pump can produce. That can be less than what the well can produces. 2 cuft of KL should have about 10 or 11 gpm of backwash.

The tests results are labeled as to where they were taken from, if they are multiple results. Otherwise they are after the pump which would mean no chemicals were introduced yet. At that time, as well, I did not have any chemical injection.

I measured previously, I believe, with a method of emptying your pressure tanks and then turning on the pump and counting which gave me 13 GPM I believe. I am hoping this is what I recall correctly as the measuring technique. I've used the bucket fill method to measure backwash rate. I have DLFC in both tanks right now but I know at one time I washed out some media (had that much flow, before the DLFC) and with the DFLC I am getting at least 13 GPM. It feels weird that those numbers are the same, so maybe I'm incorrect on one. Reviewing my prior emails one vendor did ask for pump volume and I said 13 GPM based on their test procedure. So sounds right.