Plumbing for a water softener and bypass

[alanmeyer]

Hi,

I'm attempting a DIY installation of a water softener. One problem is that the water softener needs to be mounted about 30 feet away from where it needs to connect into the pipe near the main shut off valve. So, my plan is to run CPVC (was PVC) lines to/from the main copper line.

My first step in this will be to splice into the main line, and I'd like to install a bypass near the main valve so that I can quickly bypass most of the new lines if there's a problem (immediately or in the future).

This first picture below is my main valve (the lever is behind the pipe on the left, feeding a pressure regulator in the middle, and then going back down on the right as it enters the house.

I want to cut into the line after the regulator, and then add the 3 valves to enable the bypass. Here's a very crude drawing, and below a picture of the pieces laid out on the floor as I'd connect them:

One problem, is lack of space because it's going to be in the wall (I will add any additional access panels as needed), and there's minimal space to the right of the existing plumbing:

My other option is to run the new bypass above the existing plumbing (requires that I open the wall above the current access panel).

Some questions:

(1) Are there any major concerns with this proposal?

(2) Does one solution here make more sense than the other?

(3) The current piping is 1" copper. I plan to make the run to/from the water softener with 1" CPVC. Would there be a big problem if I reduced the CPVC line to 3/4"?

Thank you,
-Alan

 

[JohnjH2o1]

PVC pipe is not allowed inside the home. You could use CPVC.

John

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hj]

1. MOST softeners are going to come WITH a bypass manifold at the unit, which is ALL you need.
2. DO NOT use PVC, it is not allowed inside a building and would be a very bad idea if you insisted on using it.

 

[alanmeyer]

PVC pipe is not allowed inside the home. You could use CPVC.

1. MOST softeners are going to come WITH a bypass manifold at the unit, which is ALL you need.
2. DO NOT use PVC, it is not allowed inside a building and would be a very bad idea if you insisted on using it.

Thank you for the responses.

1. Even if the softener comes with a bypass at the unit, I am still concerned about the additional run that I'm installing. I suppose that if a pro were to install this, that I could have more confidence that I didn't need to bypass the extra lines that are going to have to run across my garage. So, for my own peace of mind, I'm planning to add in this bypass before I even route in the new lines. I guess it just amounts to extra work, and perhaps doesn't make a lot of sense to a pro...

2. CPVC -- got it. I will use that instead. Or is that not recommended either?

Any other advice?

 

[Jimbo]

CPVC is smaller id than copper. Looks like 1"copper you have...use 1 1/4" CPVC. And use BRASS ball valves. All the plastic is the weak link that might have problems....do you want a PLASTIC valve to be your lifeline in that situation???

 

[hj]

IF you can solder properly, the plastic you install will be the weak link, therefore you want a BRASS valve which will NOT break and CAUSE a problem rather than solve one. If I were worried about something I installed breaking, I can guarantee that I would NOT install it that way, rather than put in valves which would isolate it when something happened. Use copper and you will NOT have to oversize it to compensate for the smaller i.d. of CPVC, nor worry about it breaking some day while you are away on a two week vacation. You do realize that you do not really have the space to do what you want to, unless you do a lot of repiping and offsetting.

(sidebar), using a female plastic fitting, of any kind on a metal male thread is almost a guarantee that it will crack someday, which is why plumbing codes do NOT allow that type of connection..

 

[alanmeyer]

CPVC is smaller id than copper. Looks like 1"copper you have...use 1 1/4" CPVC.

Makes sense. I didn't realize that two flavors of plastic pipe would have different measurement conventions. I guess that's why they say: "I love standards -- there's so many to choose from"

And use BRASS ball valves. All the plastic is the weak link that might have problems....do you want a PLASTIC valve to be your lifeline in that situation???

IF you can solder properly, the plastic you install will be the weak link, therefore you want a BRASS valve which will NOT break and CAUSE a problem rather than solve one. If I were worried about something I installed breaking, I can guarantee that I would NOT install it that way, rather than put in valves which would isolate it when something happened. Use copper and you will NOT have to oversize it to compensate for the smaller i.d. of CPVC, nor worry about it breaking some day while you are away on a two week vacation.

This is the type of advice that I needed to know. I will switch to all brass ball valves.

You do realize that you do not really have the space to do what you want to, unless you do a lot of repiping and offsetting.

Indeed I recognize this. This is perhaps the biggest thing weighing on my mind: How to add in the new connections. But, even without the bypass it seems that I'm tight on space. Though I've removed drywall to the right of the existing panel already, I'm now thinking that I need to move the additional valves above the current pipes so that I get more room. So, this is where I could perhaps use the most advice.

If you were adding in this bypass (close to the main valve), how would you plumb it?

(sidebar), using a female plastic fitting, of any kind on a metal male thread is almost a guarantee that it will crack someday, which is why plumbing codes do NOT allow that type of connection..

I didn't realize this. I am attempting to make the right decisions here without breaking the bank. If I used all copper pipe for this project, I would probably be spending an extra $500 just on materials. So, I thought CPVC was a good alternative for the longer runs.

Assuming that you think that CPVC pipe is acceptable for this application (just the pipe, not the valves anymore), then what type of connection would I need to make to go between a 1" copper valve going to a 1-1/4" CPVC?

Also, I have decent soldering skills but I haven't attempting to remove and re-solder pipe before. From what I've read, there are additional risks involved when you do and the general consensus is to cut off pipe past where it was soldered before (basically prevent re-soldering). In this case, I don't think that I'll have much of a choice. I'll need to re-solder at least where I splice in due to the limited space that I have to work.

BTW, I really appreciate your time here. It's this kind of help that I've seen in other threads in this forum that made me want to register and participate.

Cheers,
-Alan

 

[alanmeyer]

1. MOST softeners are going to come WITH a bypass manifold at the unit, which is ALL you need.

HJ, Out of curiosity, did your opinion about the built-in softener bypass change since this post or is the context different?

 

[Schustermarie54]

You could try a local plumbing supply house. Ours carries a few different brass bypass valves for softeners.

Or......just plumb a bypass in yourself. There is a distince advantage to this if/when you eventually want to install a different softener. There will be no sizing compatibility issues this way and you can have water to the house during the time you are changing out units.

3 full-port ball valves is all you need.

 

[hj]

I have no problem with the softener bypass valves, and if you replace one with the same, or similar, model, it "snaps" right in place. Without the bypass you have absolutely NO space problem because you "cut" the pipe then go to the softener from the top cut and return to the bottom pipe. But, as an aside, WHERE is the water heater in relation to where the softener is going?

 

[alanmeyer]

WHERE is the water heater in relation to where the softener is going?

The water heater is on the opposite side of the garage. The main valve is near the back of the garage on the left side, and the water heater is along the back wall of the garage, but almost all the way to the right side. The pipes will have to go across the garage, probably along the back wall, and at or near the ceiling. I measured the distances of all the walls and it added up to over 60 feet of pipe.

What options do you feel that I have to complete the task?

 

[hj]

quote; The main valve is near the back of the garage on the left side, and the water heater is along the back wall of the garage, but almost all the way to the right side.

And where is the softener going? Near the water heater or somewhere else entirely?

 

[hj]

quote; The main valve is near the back of the garage on the left side, and the water heater is along the back wall of the garage, but almost all the way to the right side.

And where is the softener going? Near the water heater or somewhere else entirely?

 

[alanmeyer]

The main valve is near the back of the garage on the left side, and the water heater is along the back wall of the garage, but almost all the way to the right side.

And where is the softener going? Near the water heater or somewhere else entirely?

Yes, near the water heater. About 2 years ago, I converted to a tankless water heater, so the best spot in the garage is the platform for the old tank.

 

[Gary Swart]

You seem to have gathered a wrong idea about un-soldering and re-using previously soldered pipe and fittings. It is true that reusing fittings is usually hardly worth the time and effort to clean fittings, but reusing pipe is almost zero extra effort. IMHO, CPVC is a poor choice of material. You already have copper, stay with it. Yes, it's a more expensive, but it's a one time expense and far less likely to cause problems in the future. It seldom pays to go cheap.

 

[MACPLUMB]

I would go vertical remove the prv including unions where first union is 90 up inside the wall
(after you open drywall) install a new prv valve on the vertical plane cross over install your bypass then reconnect where the coupling is ,
this gives you more room to work on bypass without having to mess with the double studs on the right side
you can then make your own mini wood closet door to cover plumbing and provide access for future

this also sets you up to run your softner pipes up inside the wall at least till you get ceiling high

 

[hj]

In that case, cut and cap the bottom pipe going to the house. Run the "raw" water line from the regulator to the softener. Then run the outlet pipe FROM the softener to the cold feed to the water heater and connect it there between the wall and the heater's shut off valve.

 

[alanmeyer]

I would go vertical remove the prv including unions where first union is 90 up inside the wall
(after you open drywall) install a new prv valve on the vertical plane cross over install your bypass then reconnect where the coupling is ,
this gives you more room to work on bypass without having to mess with the double studs on the right side
you can then make your own mini wood closet door to cover plumbing and provide access for future

this also sets you up to run your softner pipes up inside the wall at least till you get ceiling high

OK. This makes sense to run vertically. Repositioning the PRV will make routing easier but will likely put it out of reach with the existing access panel. I'll have to have at least one more panel -- which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I will indeed run the pipes inside the wall until it gets to the ceiling.

 

[alanmeyer]

In that case, cut and cap the bottom pipe going to the house. Run the "raw" water line from the regulator to the softener. Then run the outlet pipe FROM the softener to the cold feed to the water heater and connect it there between the wall and the heater's shut off valve.

That's a clever idea. Are there any disadvantages to this approach? For example, since the water heater feed is only 3/4" vs. the main line of 1", would I encounter a pressure problem? That also means some water in the pipes will be running in the reverse direction now.

Lastly, since the water heater is 3/4" would I just run a 3/4" line to the softener or keep it 1" to the softener?

 

[MACPLUMB]

It is not pressure you lose but rather volume of flow,
i know a lot of plumbers do it this way but in my opinion i would keep the 1"
supply going to all the fixtures this helps all the plumbing last longer,
a softener running to water heater only just wears the water heater out sooner !
The reason is heaters use a sacrificial anode rod that soft water wears out
about 10 times as fast as normal then the water rusts out the tank
i have seen this happen on water heaters just one or two years old