Plumber didn't center shower drain rough in under the drain hole - how big a problem is this?

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MNshowerdude2

not to be confused with showerdude, im showerdude2
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expecting this shower unit not to leak after you are done with it
just speculating here....


You dont expect squat. You flood test your work before any tile enters the picture. You also watch every drop of flood test water rush down the drain and verify there are no puddles anywhere and that it drys out quick. You do this as the inspector talks to you about their miserable job and signs the paper, he or she likely saw nothing as they were rambling at you partially due to nervous energy because they likley dont know what you know, this is usually because they are mostly failed tradesmen and women., so its up to you to police youre own work in protection of your name and client relations.... :)

soon the pilgrims are all saying, That Mark he is really thourough id give him a call.
 
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Master Plumber Mark

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soon the pilgrims are all saying, That Mark he is really thourough id give him a call.

Dont call me, we got out of the bath remodel work about 15 years ago...
it was too time consuming, labor intense, and there were too many jack legs underbidding the
jobs for half of what we would do it for.... and of course all the DIYers too.


We would start a demo job and the second we started the phone would ring off the wall
with tons of service work we could have been doing but had to pass on for the week.
Also we have landed in a few messes that the contractor we worked for
simply could not please the customer. and they were nightmares....


You can say I am out of touch with what the industry is using now and thats ok....
I know what we installed 30 years ago will last another 30 years from now..



These days, Only home service work for me... thank you..

 

Cool Blue Harley

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expecting this shower unit not to leak after you are done with it
just speculating here....


You dont expect squat. You flood test your work before any tile enters the picture. You also watch every drop of flood test water rush down the drain and verify there are no puddles anywhere and that it drys out quick. You do this as the inspector talks to you about their miserable job and signs the paper, he or she likely saw nothing as they were rambling at you partially due to nervous energy because they likley dont know what you know, this is usually because they are mostly failed tradesmen and women., so its up to you to police youre own work in protection of your name and client relations.... :)
 
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Cool Blue Harley

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expecting this shower unit not to leak after you are done with it
just speculating here....


You dont expect squat. You flood test your work before any tile enters the picture. You also watch every drop of flood test water rush down the drain and verify there are no puddles anywhere and that it drys out quick. You do this as the inspector talks to you about their miserable job and signs the paper, he or she likely saw nothing as they were rambling at you partially due to nervous energy because they likley dont know what you know, this is usually because they are mostly failed tradesmen and women., so its up to you to police youre own work in protection of your name and client relations.... :)

When adopted by a smaller community, perhaps such as yours, the AHJ may be one individual or a small committee. Is this the failed tradesman you are referring to?

Here in San Francisco, we have a governing body that appoints a building official to administer our department. This individual will then hire or appoint assistants, inspectors, plans check personnel, and other staff as needed to enforce the various codes adopted by our governing body.

The inspector is the individual that most plumbers deal with. We visit the job site and inspect work for compliance with the code. We are also the officials who will interpret and enforce the code requirements. We are highly respected. Some of us have our names documented in your code book, because we serve on committees responsible for its existence.

We do not ramble or project nervous energy.
 

Cool Blue Harley

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When adopted by a smaller community, perhaps such as yours, the AHJ may be one individual or a small committee. Is this the failed tradesman you are referring to?

Here in San Francisco, we have a governing body that appoints a building official to administer our department. This individual will then hire or appoint assistants, inspectors, plans check personnel, and other staff as needed to enforce the various codes adopted by our governing body.

The inspector is the individual that most plumbers deal with. We visit the job site and inspect work for compliance with the code. We are also the officials who will interpret and enforce the code requirements. We are highly respected. Some of us have our names documented in your code book, because we serve on committees responsible for its existence.

We do not ramble or project nervous energy.[/QUOTE]
 

Master Plumber Mark

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expecting this shower unit not to leak after you are done with it
just speculating here....


You dont expect squat. You flood test your work before any tile enters the picture. You also watch every drop of flood test water rush down the drain and verify there are no puddles anywhere and that it drys out quick. You do this as the inspector talks to you about their miserable job and signs the paper, he or she likely saw nothing as they were rambling at you partially due to nervous energy because they likley dont know what you know, this is usually because they are mostly failed tradesmen and women., so its up to you to police youre own work in protection of your name and client relations.... :)



I totally agree with you about the inspectors... you nailed it 100%
most of them inspect because they cant actually do the work....
In our area no one comes out to inspect a shower base installation....
They might look up in the rafters and check the venting and sign off on the whole rough inn job..
but you will never, ever see them actually go down into the crawl space and look at the pitch on the pipes...
that is way too much physical labor on a hot day.......
(they always keep their city cars running with the air conditioning on).
 

jadnashua

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FWIW, I've been to three, multi-day classes on Schluter stuff, and have used it to build showers. It is not really all that hard. I went back again to see what new products they had come out with...the membrane had remained the same as when released over 25-years ago. Any shower will be a bit less than ideal if the drain riser is not plumb. Most drain bodies are not as large in diameter as those used with bonded membranes (Schluter is not alone in this), so a typical clamping drain, if the riser isn't plumb, may not be as obvious or problematic. It should not be beyond the skill of a professional plumber to get it plumb, nor should it be that hard to position it where it needs to be. Failing that, it isn't all that hard for a DIY'er to get it where it needs to go, too. Most pros would not use the preformed pan, and would build a mudbed, which also works just fine when using a membrane. If the drain line isn't plumb, you'll still have issues, but at least, being off from your exact needed position isn't a big deal since the mud doesn't really care.

To those that poke fun at the system and have never used it, common reaction to people that are not willing to open their minds. There are lots of advantages of using a surface bonded membrane over a conventional liner and mudbed. Any system needs to be installed properly, it doesn't matter whose it is, or the method you choose.
 

Troutd0g

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Final update on this issue:

Thank you all very much for the posts and guidance - it is very much appreciated.

I decided to rip and replace. Just rebuild everything. It was painful but was the right solution. Now everything is perfect. As somebody commented, it's not that hard to mess up drain alignment and level, but it's also not that hard to get it right. Just take your time and prioritize accuracy over speed. This is the 3rd plumbing project I have contracted a licensed master plumber for - each time I picked a different person and all 3 times the resulting work had to be redone. This is part of the reason many capable people decide to DIY. Also the satisfaction it brings to do something yourself.

On a separate part of this project I had the plumber move a toilet drain and specifically instructed him to not glue the riser or flange so I could do that after finishing the floor. He glued them anyway and had to tear it all out and redo it after I insisted that the flange should, at a minimum be flush with the tile if not on the finished floor. His recommendation, as a pro, was to simply use more wax or stack flange extenders. Luckily I had done my homework.

Now on to the rest of the project!
 

Troutd0g

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Backing up to the beginning...
My bathroom remodel project started by noticing staining and mold in the vinyl flooring near the tub. Removed the vinyl to discover water damage that had rotted the particleboard underpayment and the 3/4" OSB all the way through as well as a portion of the sill plate of the plumbing wall. Always wanted to upgrade that bathroom to tile, now I had a reason. While I'm at it we decided we should convert tub to shower.
Attached picture of the water rot found outside the tub. More substantial damage was along the plumbing wall behind the tub.
Attached picture of cut away subfloor, replaced 1.5" drain with 2" and toilet drain moved to make room for the shower.
 

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Troutd0g

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I replaced the cut away OSB and then added a layer of 15/32 plywood to stiffen the floor for tile. Over this I will layer 1/4" Hardin backer CBU. Here is my method for transferring measurements for drain holes to the next layer. I taped a large sheet of card stock to a wood block, traced the hole, marked the location of the block on the wall then used this template to transfer the hole to the next layer after it was down. It worked perfectly. I used a rotozip with circle cutting attachment to cut the holes after fastening the subfloor layers with screws. I followed fastener schedule recommended by the OSB and plywood manufacturers (6" along edges, 8" in the field) and left 1/8" expansion gap between sheets.
 

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jadnashua

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Some people have indicated they buy Kerdi (and Ditra which is used for floors) for a bit over $1/sqft, which is lots less than the retail cost. It may be that they're buying larger rolls...it's been awhile since I bought any.

FWIW, Ditra is much easier to carry, cut, install, and faster than dealing with cbu, screws, tape, because you can easily carry a monster roll of the stuff and cut it cleanly with either scissors or a sharp knife. The silica dust from cutting cbu is toxic, if that makes any difference to you as well. Ditra installed is also about 1/2 the thickness of 1/4" cbu, which can make transitions just that much easier, and, IMHO, provides a bit more protection than cbu not including the fact you can make the install waterproof if you band the seams.
 

A.P. Tile guy

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I would say no-problem.Put the drain where you want it.Then be sure you have the seeper holes notched and on top of the kerdi.if there are problems after you float and set it ,they will be an easy fix for the plumber after the fact.
pretty normal scenario.keep your cool.make sure you get the waterproofing right around that drain.thats most important.then you are good.
 

MNshowerdude2

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Next time you attempt Cross blocking, understand cross blocking 101. You cross block the cut out UNDER THE SEAM you cut out, not adjacent to it by an inch or so.. Simpson ties cant slide under....not an excuse, lastly structural plywood starts at 1/2" .

Now, did you try hard and do it right with simpsons and irc and such? you did. Will your bathroom implode on itself? likely not. But lets not egg other readers on to doing it 90% of the way correct.
 

jadnashua

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I would say no-problem.Put the drain where you want it.Then be sure you have the seeper holes notched and on top of the kerdi.if there are problems after you float and set it ,they will be an easy fix for the plumber after the fact.
pretty normal scenario.keep your cool.make sure you get the waterproofing right around that drain.thats most important.then you are good.
You obviously don't understand how a surface membrane shower like a Kerdi one works...there are no seeper (sic) holes in the drain (the proper term is weep holes, but this type of drain neither has any nor needs them - there's no porous mudbed that needs to be drained, only thinset directly on the membrane holding the tile in place). The surface membrane is bonded to the top of the drain, and then you tile directly on top of that membrane. The drain is approximately 12" in diameter, so any out of level situation will just be amplified across it. Since it is not buried in the mudbed, there's no way to hide that problem.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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You obviously don't understand how a surface membrane shower like a Kerdi one works...there are no seeper (sic) holes in the drain (the proper term is weep holes, but this type of drain neither has any nor needs them - there's no porous mudbed that needs to be drained, only thinset directly on the membrane holding the tile in place). The surface membrane is bonded to the top of the drain, and then you tile directly on top of that membrane. The drain is approximately 12" in diameter, so any out of level situation will just be amplified across it. Since it is not buried in the mudbed, there's no way to hide that problem.



This also makes me wonder about movement in the floor itself over time.
with only thinset holding the drain in place .. The drain might be rated
for a ton standing on it but the floor might slightly give with some heffer (cow) weighing
475lbs... Then if you get a couple of big heavy folks getting all frisky and
going at it doggy style in the shower anything on gods green earth could move....

I also assume that some sort of fall to that drain from all corners is factored into the install..too....?? I have seen the results of just tiling right down to a flat surface of concrete board... What appeared to be level turned out not to be and every time they took a shower , water would stand in one of the corners which had to be manually swept to the drain in the center.....
 
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Master Plumber Mark

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Well, Well, Well...
Lookie right here at what I get to install tomorrow...... its on the second floor and the homeowner
does not have a clue as to what the tile man is actually installing yet...
But thanks to TERRY LOVE and his wonderful plumbin site I am fully versed with all the ins and outs of this shower system..... (at least I will sound like I know what I am talking about tomorrow)

I asked him if the tile guy was putting down a concrete base with a vinyl membrane and he was totally clueless.....

The homeowner thinks I am somehow gonna magically take that there plastic drain thingy out of the
floor without making a huge hole in the floor to do it... and he dont want me to do it from underneath in the living room neither......

now I am sure glad I got me a good education about this stuff on this site cause I might have done made me the same mistakes

I am gonna have a little talk with this guy tomorrow because I dont plan on wasting my time
if he expects this to be done without cutting the hell out of that floor first...


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