PEX-A installation

[Tuttles Revenge]

Leaking expansion joints are installer error near every time. Or a messed up fitting, but that still falls back on the installer to inspect to make sure there are no nicks in the fittings sealing surfaces.

Correct installation is to ensure your cuts are square, the expansion ring with stop is set correctly on the tube so that the tube is inset from the end of the ring slightly and that is what the stop end of the expansion ring does. Expand and rotate the expansion fingers with every expansion of the tool. (this is likely where your leak occurred) Hold the expansion head open on your last expansion. Insert fitting into expanded tubing and hold til the tube shrinks back down.

If the fingers expand in the same point repeatedly the tube stretches laterally and unevenly in the area that is supposed to be uniformly stretched when it comes into contact with the perfectly round sealing surface of the fitting.

We always work backwards to the point of connection when we're doing water installations. Install all your tubing first then connect to the source so you only have a few minutes of downtime. But this does rely on having 100% confidence that all of your work is going to hold. A simple air test prior can confirm this too.

Sometimes in the olden days of Wirsbo installations, we would be working in cold environments and pressurize a system too soon. Some of the fittings would drip. But they would be sealed up by morning. The contraction just took longer.

In this case, if you're curious enough to find out what happened to that particular joint, I would cut it out an inspect the tube surface to see if it has lines that correspond with improper rotation.

 

[JohnCT]

So, I'm an old school DIYer. I've received great help here before. I bought a Ryan home a little over a year ago. All of the supply lines are PEX-A. I'm used to copper. What I've done in the past is tie into existing supply and putting in shutoffs so I can work downstream without shutting off the whole house for extended periods. Solder and you're done. It's a 10 minute job. What I findwith the PEX-A is the fittings leak. I've put in these stubs without having the water on for 2 hours. I shut the valves, turn on the water and fittings leak. My better half went to bed angry because we don't have water.

I'm afraid of connecting the rest and still having it water everywhere. How do you guys ensure the fittings don't leak?

Pexflow pipe? I haven't heard of that brand.

I've never seen a PEX-A expansion fitting leak. I'm not a pro, but helped a buddy a few times on installs plus my own home projects. He's only used Uponor brand pipe and a Milwaukee powered expansion tool and that's the tool I own. The powered tool rotates the expansion head with every expansion so it doesn't set up a "channel" of sorts to allow liquid to get by. If you use a manual tool, you have to be sure to rotate the tool with every expansion, and if you have a powered tool, you should verify that it's working properly with regards to rotating the head.

If you used a manual tool and didn't rotate it, I'd try heating the connections with a heat gun (don't over do it).

John

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Giants_fan_in_PA]

Leaking expansion joints are installer error near every time. Or a messed up fitting, but that still falls back on the installer to inspect to make sure there are no nicks in the fittings sealing surfaces.

Correct installation is to ensure your cuts are square, the expansion ring with stop is set correctly on the tube so that the tube is inset from the end of the ring slightly and that is what the stop end of the expansion ring does. Expand and rotate the expansion fingers with every expansion of the tool. (this is likely where your leak occurred) Hold the expansion head open on your last expansion. Insert fitting into expanded tubing and hold til the tube shrinks back down.

If the fingers expand in the same point repeatedly the tube stretches laterally and unevenly in the area that is supposed to be uniformly stretched when it comes into contact with the perfectly round sealing surface of the fitting.

We always work backwards to the point of connection when we're doing water installations. Install all your tubing first then connect to the source so you only have a few minutes of downtime. But this does rely on having 100% confidence that all of your work is going to hold. A simple air test prior can confirm this too.

Sometimes in the olden days of Wirsbo installations, we would be working in cold environments and pressurize a system too soon. Some of the fittings would drip. But they would be sealed up by morning. The contraction just took longer.

In this case, if you're curious enough to find out what happened to that particular joint, I would cut it out an inspect the tube surface to see if it has lines that correspond with improper rotation.

Thank you for taking the time to post this.

 

[Giants_fan_in_PA]

OK, what kind of expander did you use? If manual, did you rotate between expansions?

Cheers, Wayne

Rented a Dewalt cordless.

 

[wwhitney]

Rented a Dewalt cordless.

Hmm, that tool autorotates, so assuming the autorotation was working properly, I'm almost out of ideas on why it could leak.

Are the tube ends definitely coaxial with the fitting ends? IIRC there are two stops opposite each other on each F1960 connection, so if the tube end is in contact with the stops, that rules out a tilt in one direction, but not necessarily in the perpendicular direction.

If installer error is ruled out, that leaves a defect in the fitting as the only option. Which connection is leaking, and how about a close up photo of that connection? Still showing the whole tee fitting, but possibly little else.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JohnCT]

Hmm, that tool autorotates, so assuming the autorotation was working properly, I'm almost out of ideas on why it could leak.

If it's a rental tool, I wonder if that tool got mixed/matched with heads that don't autorotate, or some unscrupulous person rented the tool and swapped the heads. Even so, by now it should have settled in and stopped leaking if the leaks were due to not rotating the heads.

Other than that, it's got to be nicks/defects on the fittings.

John

 

[Giants_fan_in_PA]

If it's a rental tool, I wonder if that tool got mixed/matched with heads that don't autorotate, or some unscrupulous person rented the tool and swapped the heads. Even so, by now it should have settled in and stopped leaking if the leaks were due to not rotating the heads.

Other than that, it's got to be nicks/defects on the fittings.

John

It rotated. It was one thing that I picked up watching installation videos.

 

[Giants_fan_in_PA]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I guess I didn’t wait long enough for it to bounce back. I’m going to wait a couple of days in hopes of the rest of the connections tightening up. If I get desperate, I’ll try the heat gun.

 

[JohnCT]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I guess I didn’t wait long enough for it to bounce back. I’m going to wait a couple of days in hopes of the rest of the connections tightening up. If I get desperate, I’ll try the heat gun.

It should be water tight in 5 minutes unless the pipe is very cold. Have you tried powering up the system since? Also, where did the pipe and fittings come from? They are F1960 fittings, yes? If they're F2159 they're too small.

John

 

[Jeff H Young]

Cut bad joint out and do it over. if it doesn't leak you fixed it. I'm not sure if poorly maintained tool might not rotate properly coulda been a nicked barb but in any case at this point even if heating it or a clamp stops it I'd want that fitting gone

 

[Reach4]

Use the proper F1960 fittings. Use good rings. Be sure the PEX is full-into the rings.

Do not attempt to put the rings on when the outside of the pipe is wet.

 

[Breplum]

To WW's poignant question. Did you rotate between expansions. What tool are you using.
Expansion PEX under trained and experienced installers should never leak and if it does, there is some point of fault...either installer issue or materials.
In the event of a failure, mfr has us cut out the joint to submit for evaluation. The failed assembly must have tube date/time identity markings, etc.
All damages end up being reimbursed with a reputable mfr.

 

[Weekend Handyman]

I am not a plumber or pro.

I would say by following the manufacturers instructions to the letter ( square cut, fully inserted fitting, rings in right place, being sure to rotate the tool, distance between fittings, etc.

Then always testing your work.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Even if you don't cut the tube perfectly square and don't butt it against the stops and even if the PEX rings are back away from the end of the tube (or even without PEX rings) this system won't leak. Believe me, I've seen every single one of those screw ups and I've seen them all together not leak when we pull apart walls for remodels.

its either rotation or bad fitting/tube

 

[John Gayewski]

It's the temperature. I've had this problem before. I worked on my house and had multiple lakes. A heat gun will speed up the shrinking process so the expansion will reform more quickly.

I also agree the tool must rotate. Sometimes the auto rotate feature will get stuck if the dye isn't screwed on tight. Or if you use a hand expander and neglected to rotate the tube as you expand it.