Persisting Toto Soiree Problems

[HomeFront]

We are stumped in troubleshooting our Toto Soiree Sanigloss toilet and hope you might be able to advise how to proceed.

We replaced a prior toilet at the advice of our service plumber because it just wouldn't flush reliably despite multiple plumbing calls. Since installing this new toilet we have continued to have trouble. We have now camera'd the Toto Soiree to the street, hydro jetted the stack, as well as frequent plunging and snaking. This represents thousands of dollars invested in the toilet, yet the toilet is still not working well. It doesn't seem to be a whole hose issue since our cheap Gerber basement toilet has been working fine all of the time.

It seems like we may have several distinct problems with the Soiree, though perhaps the are interrelated.

1. Persistant incomplete flush - even just urine with no toilet paper doesn't go down the drain. This is almost always better on a second flush, often enough to get it down if you wait for tank to fill fully. It also gets a little better if you flush a whole bunch of times or plunger. On the first flush, the water just doesn't move very fast into the bowl.

2. Considerable staining of the toilet bowl from the very first months of use. The worst stains are mottled brown, in the narrow portion of the bowl at the bottom. We have used vinegar, water, borax and Seventh Generation toilet bowl cleaner with a scrub brush to try to remove, but haven't used pumice stone given the sanigloss care instructions.

3. Handle has to be held down to flush or flapper closes way too quickly. The plumber replaced the flapper with a new one because it was degrading, but this problem has persisted. Surely this is a simple issue and not related to the others?

4. There is a trickling sound several times an hour - sounds like the tank is refilling but there is no perceptible movement in either the tank or bowl, and the water level in tank doesn't seem to be dropping. The bowl level sometimes does seem to be dropping slightly. Someone had mentioned this is due to the plastic trap, but I don't quite understand the connection. This has been there literally from day one of installing the toilet, but the plumber said not to worry about it (and there's no water leaking to ceiling below as far as we can tell, also tank not leaking into the bowl (did dye test overnight).

5. There are lots of calcium deposits in tank, which surprised the plumber given the newness of the toilet. We have hard water in our town. Upon the plumber's recommendation, we have used vinegar overnight in tank and bowl. Then you can peel the calcium out of the tank at least..

Could items 1/2/5 be calcium blocking the line between tank and bowl? If so, how do we go about cleaning that out on a one-piece toilet??

What other solutions should we explore, or do we need to replace the toilet, again? This is particularly disappointing because we selected Toto and the Soiree because of the strong track record of cleanability and performance.

Thank you for your assistance!

 

[Gary Swart]

Since this problem occurred before the new toilet, it's highly unlikely to be the toilet's fault. I wonder if your drain has enough slope or if there is a belly in it. If it was originally laid at exactly 1/4" per foot slope, that would have be legal but it could have settled, leaving a low spot.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

You have a bowl that doesn't flush water, and the plumber has run a camera down it?
That just sound like something out of the Twilight Zone.

For me, when I do a service call, if a toilet doesn't flush the first time and the flush varies, the first thing I think is that there is "something" in the trapway. I then pull the bowl and find the problem.
The last job like that was plastic Q-Tips.

One way to find out if the tank is leaking, is to turn off the water supply at the wall.

To check out the lower trapway on the Soiree, undo the two nuts at the back and lift up.
You will be able to see the upper part of the trapway and the lower part. There is really no place to hide anything there. Has anyone done this yet?

 

[HomeFront]

Gary:

When we finally resorted to videotaping the line (truly scintillating theater ...), it did appear that the slope isn't quite right (finished basement with tight head clearance, I can see why someone might have gotten overzealous and it does seem a lot of things in our house were done by a do-it-yourselfer or not-quite-professional), but there wasn't anything hanging up there. Initially the plumber said rip out the basement ceiling and reslope it. But, when his boss reviewed the tape, he thought that couldn't possibly be it and said the only other thing he could think of was a partial obstruction in the vent stack (thus the hydrojetting of the vent).

Even with nothing stuck in there the time we looked, do you think that's the root cause here?

 

[Jadnashua]

Was there standing water in the drain line anywhere? Double-check the small hose on the fill valve and make sure it is pointed down the overflow tube in the toilet, held in place by the clip and not shoved down the pipe. Try turning off the water supply like Terry said and leave it overnight or at least a few hours and see if the tank water level drops. A vent line being clogged won't prevent a toilet from flushing...it might cause other things to have problems, but not the toilet (generally, anyway).

Don't use any chemicals in the tank. If you have really nasty, hard water, you might want to consider some water conditioning equipment.

 

[Gary Swart]

What makes me think there may be a slope problem with the line is that the problem existed before the new toilet was installed. It's interesting the plumber who did the camera job suggest redoing the line. It makes me think he saw something that didn't seem quite right. Maybe a different plumber and a new camera job would be in order.

 

[HomeFront]

Let's see, answering your questions:

1) We turned off the water overnight and the tank level did drop. Just less than an inch in 8 hours.

2) When we camera'd the line, there was a bit of standing water in the line. Not much, just a slight puddle. And, no solids or paper in it.

3) Is checking out the lower trapway something we can do on our own without much drama, or need help?

4) The small hose on the fill valve is pointed down the overflow tube in the toilet, held in place by the clip and not shoved down the pipe.

Also, TOTO technical support suggested CLR in case lime is blocking the holes between tank and bowl, and changing out the mechanical components if that doesn't do it (thinking maybe the vinegar did damage, or they were bad from the start).

 

[HomeFront]

The CLR worked really well. It seems like the lower jet into the bowl (at the narrowest part of bowl was partially blocked with calcium/lime). We poured CLR down the overflow pipe, waited 15 mins adn then flushed a few times. We may need to do it some more, but already loads better!

Now if we could just figure out how to adjust the flapper so we don't have to hold handle down, we'll be fully functional again ... until that slope issue rears it's ugly head down the road.

Water softener system worth it, or just treat with CLR regularly?