Oversized well pump - what to do?

Users who are viewing this thread

None

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Earth
I bought my house last year and there is zero information about the well. All I know is it was drilled in 2006 when the house was built and it has a 6" PVC casing. Depth unknown, no tags, no records. Looking at the plumbing on top of the well, it looks pretty DIY. The drop pipe is 1" poly connected to 1" PVC on top.

The problem is the pump can easily out pump the well. It pumps over 10GPM and if I leave it running for about 30 minutes, water starts coming out brown and sandy. If the well has been sitting for a while, it only takes about 200 gallons before there is noticeable sand coming out.

This is fine for normal household use, but if I'm using a hose outside I don't have much water. I would like to be able to just let it run and not worry about ruining the pump because I forgot about it. Is this just a matter of the pump being too large for the well?

If so, can I simply install a ball valve on top of the well and choke it down a bit? My pressure tank is also too small, about 6 gallons draw down, giving very short pump cycles for household use.

I'm going to install a separate ~600 gallon tank and pump for outdoor use, so it can fill slowly, but once again I don't want to have to babysit the tank while it is filling. Can I just choke the well down to a level that matches it's recharge rate?
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,844
Reaction score
791
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Can I just choke the well down to a level that matches it's recharge rate?
The flow rate maybe reduced in the manner you mention or you could use a Dole valve which is a flow regulator with a set maximum flow rate.

Another option for you may be a Cyclecstop Valve and a Cycle Sensor. Forum administrator Valveman markets those devices so you may wish to converse with him when he is next online. You can find information on the CSV device in many of the Well Forum threads Valveman has participated in, or you may view his website @: https://cyclestopvalves.com/

Here is a thread with further info on a situation similar to yours: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/dole-valve-vs-gate-valve.51379/
 
Last edited:

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,507
Reaction score
581
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
Another option for you may be a Cyclecstop Valve and a Cycle Sensor.
The CSV will not slow down the draw while water is in heavy use, only after the water is turned off and the tank is getting topped up. You would need to slow the flow at the hydrant and then the CSV will slow the draw to match it.
The Cycle Sensor will not shut off the pump when the well is drawn down far enough to create turbidity. It will only shut off the pump when it senses a drop in amps as when it looses prime.
 

None

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Earth
The CSV will not slow down the draw while water is in heavy use, only after the water is turned off and the tank is getting topped up. You would need to slow the flow at the hydrant and then the CSV will slow the draw to match it.

So say I have a garden hose cracked open to about 2GPM. Will the cycle valve stop constant cycling and prevent more than 2GPM from coming out of the well?

I don't think a sensor will turn the pump off when it needs to. I have not seen the well actually go "dry" - it just turns totally brown and sandy, water flow appears the same(though I shut it down right away). I really want this system to be totally idiot proof because I plan on using this house for a rental in a few years.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,884
Reaction score
4,433
Points
113
Location
IL
So say I have a garden hose cracked open to about 2GPM. Will the cycle valve stop constant cycling and prevent more than 2GPM from coming out of the well?
Yes.
I don't think a sensor will turn the pump off when it needs to. I have not seen the well actually go "dry" - it just turns totally brown and sandy, water flow appears the same(though I shut it down right away).
You might want to pump as much crud to the ditch as you can by running until the pump runs dry. Then wait and do it again. They call that "developing the well".
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,844
Reaction score
791
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
So say I have a garden hose cracked open to about 2GPM. Will the cycle valve stop constant cycling and prevent more than 2GPM from coming out of the well?
The CSV will only allow the flow of water that is actually being used.

As an example, if your pressure switch is set to 30/50 psi and if you are drawing 2 gpm, the pump will cut in at 30 and pressure will rise to 40 psi where the CSV will limit flow to 2 gpm and continue running the pump for as long as you are drawing 2 gpm. If someone then runs a shower so an additional 2.5 gpm is needed, the CSV will automatically increase the flow rate from the pump to 4.5 gpm while still maintaining 40 psi downstream. The CSV will automatically vary the pump output from 1 gpm minimum to whatever flow rate is needed at a constant pressure up to the maximum flow rate achievable from your pump. Once no water is being used, the pressure tank will continue filling at 1 gpm until the cut out pressure is achieved at 50 psi.

While a Cycle Sensor may not totally address your turbidity issue when the well level is low, I suggested conversing with Cary (Valveman) to determine what he may suggest for your application.
 
Last edited:

None

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Earth
You might want to pump as much crud to the ditch as you can by running until the pump runs dry. Then wait and do it again. They call that "developing the well".
Interesting...this won't hurt the pump? I'm going to install a whole house filter, but I'd prefer if the junk didn't go through the pump in the first place. Playing with the pump kind of scares me, not something I want to replace! :D

So I gotta ask...what's the catch with a CSV? Seems a little too perfect. If they work so great for so cheap why don't the major pump manufacturers make and use them instead of super expensive VFD systems and giant pressure tanks? I have another rental house with a similar undersized pressure tank, it seems like I should install one there too.

Thanks for the info!
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,844
Reaction score
791
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Suggest reviewing the CSV web site linked above as all of your questions are addressed there. There are also videos showing how the devices work.

Although the web site will provide clarification, it would be good to also discuss your concerns and needs with Cary.
 
Last edited:

None

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Earth
Suggest reviewing the CSV web site linked above as all of your questions are addressed there. There are also videos showing how the devices work.

Although the web site will provide clarification, it would be good to also discuss your concerns and needs with Cary.

No offense, but the guy who makes them and the website that sells them is not the place to ask "what is the catch". I've read the website, I understand how they work. It's very simple. It seems this forum is more meant for advertising them than anything else. The question is, if they are so amazing, and so much cheaper than any other option, why does only one small company sell them? Why doesn't Grundfos own this and sell them for $400 each? As well as every other pumping product manufacturer. That doesn't seem odd to you? And why do they still sell Dole valves? Why hasn't China copied this? When I google this, this suspicion comes up over and over, and is never explained. The majority of mentions of this product come from this forum alone. Something doesn't add up.

I could spend over a grand on a constant pressure VFD system. Why would anybody do that if you can buy a CSV for <$70? No, the website does not answer this question.
 
Last edited:

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,507
Reaction score
581
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
It's simple. The CSV makes pumps last longer, much longer. Pump manufacturers are in the business of selling pumps, so they don't want the pump to last longer, they want to sell you a replacement pump. Cary (valveman) moderates this forum so you can expect the same quality of advice and reviews here as on his website.

BTW, stopping the cycling might also reduce the turbidity. The constant surging of the pump cycling "stirs up" the sediment. Google surge developing a well to understand. As for Reach4's suggestion to develop the well, it is possible that further developing could clear it up but given the well is 12 years old, I would think it should have cleared up by now unless the former owner was frugal with the water use.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,844
Reaction score
791
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
I have no affiliation with Valveman or CSVs but only understand the operation of the device from this forum.

You said in the thread title that your pump is oversized and mentioned your current pressure tank is too small. I suggested the CSV device as a possible remedy to those problems. A larger or 2nd pressure tank will not change the pump output so if its output is 10 gpm and only 3 gpm of water is being used, the pump will continue to pump 10 gpm while repeatedly cycling between the system's cut-in and cut-out settings for as long as less than 10 gpm is being used. The CSV will prevent cycling by reducing the pump output rate to match consumption between 1 gpm and your pump's usual output of 10 gpm. This is similar to choking the pump output with a ball valve as you first questioned, but allows the pump output to vary to match water consumption.

While the CSV will not in itself limit the maximum flow rate from your pump to less than 10 gpm, perhaps a Dole valve or similar restriction device may also be added to ensure the pump will not flow more than say 8 gpm. I anticipate a CSV would then continue to vary the pump output between 1 gpm and 8 gpm. Suggest confirming with Valveman on appropriate methods to limit the pump's maximum flow rate while also using a CSV.

It sounds as though you would not hesitate to trust a CSV if Grundfos offered them. If Grundfos was the only pump manufacturer offering them and if you own a non Grundfos pump, would you hesitate to install the Grundfos CSV or would your pump's manufacturer first need to offer their own CSV before you would consider that?

A few of the CSV videos do address the CSV vs VFD question.

A question you may wish to ask Valveman: Does use of a CSV void the pump manufacturer's warranty?
 
Last edited:

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,507
Reaction score
581
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
A question you may wish to ask Valvemen: Does use of a CSV void the pump manufacturer's warranty?
Since the well is 12 years old, it is possible the pump is as old as the well and so has no warranty remaining.
A larger tank can make a low producing well situation worse. After a bout of heavy draw, the pump then needs to run longer to fill the larger tank. If the turbidity is caused by repetitive short cycling (surging), then a larger tank might reduce the surging stirring up the well.

A way to test that theory is to draw the water (but not over draw) as fast as the pump can produce it so it doesn't cycle. The pump runs on a curve so the GPM near the cutoff pressure would be less than if the pressure was much lower. If that does not stir up the well, then it is not so much from drawing down the level but rather the repeated surging. This would also simulate the effect of a dole valve.

If the static level in the well is such that there is a considerable amount of storage in the casing, the CSV would allow you to use that storage at higher GPM for a short duration whereas the dole valve would not. For example, a typical shower would not likely consume all the water stored in the casing and so the shower could enjoy more pressure with the CSV whereas the dole valve would choke down the GPM right away and cause a drop in pressure.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,844
Reaction score
791
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
LL, I agree with you on the points you present.

Regardless of the age of his pump, my suggestion in asking about warranty coverage is in reference to None's question that if there are so many benefits to using a CSV, then why are no pump manufacturer's offering the device themselves? I interpret that to imply there must be drawbacks that Valveman/CSV is not stating such as a likelihood of damage to pumps due to using a CSV. If that is the case, I would then expect pump manufacturer's to deny warranty coverage on any pump in which a CSV was used.
 

Boycedrilling

In the Trades
Messages
837
Reaction score
185
Points
43
Location
Royal City, WA
There have been valves similar to the cycle stop valve for over 50 years. Some were made by pump manufacturers. Such as the jacuzzi aqua genie and the red jacket hydro servant. There are still at least three companies that make valves that compete with the Cycle stop Valve.

I do install cycle stop valves. Do I install them on every installation? No. I also install VFD’s and standard pressure switch systems without CSV’s. It’s knowing the right product for the right application.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,303
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Lol you guys are great! You guys know more about pumps and how a CSV works than 99% of "professional" installers. Everything you said is spot on. First I would try to develop the well or pump it out. Even 12 years means nothing if it has never been properly developed. It may take hours or days. You can pump it hard until dry, let it recover for a period of time, and pump it dry again, over and over until it cleans up. You can use a Cycle Sensor set for 20-30 minutes to recover, and just let it do that for days. It will either clean up or you will give up on it eventually. But it is worth a try, as it works most of the time.

If pumping hard doesn't work, the next option is to limit the amount used to keep from stirring up sediment. The amps on the Cycle Sensor can actually be set high enough to shut the pump off before the well runs dry if needed. In this case using a Dole valve with a CSV is preferable. The Dole valve limits the max flow to like 8 GPM, while the CSV will vary the pumps output from 1 to 8 GPM as needed when using water.

I am sorry you couldn't find what you wanted on my web page. I have written and posted hundreds of pages on many articles on this subject. Most of it is over people's heads, so they don't think I answered the questions. My answers are very technical in nature, and many pump engineers even call and ask questions.

I always thought "If you build a better mousetrap, people would beat a path to your door". I found out if you build a mousetrap so well that it could make mice extinct, people will do anything they can to discredit you and put you out of business, as there is lots of money in mousetraps. I started Cycle Stop Valves in 1993. The very first ones went to the major pump and tank manufacturers. I sat around the test pits with all their engineers and answered questions as best I could. I was really trying to get them to show me the flaws of a CSV, as I could not find any. The only flaw Goulds came up with was they were made with leaded brass. Leaded brass was normal back then, but the first lead propaganda was being published and Goulds was switching to low lead brass or other materials. Needless to say, I changed to low lead brass within a month and called Goulds to let them know. Then I get the run around. "Well we still don't know, we are still thinking about it." But a few weeks later the president of the company walked into my office and tried to buy me out. When I ask that he push the product and guarantee a modest increase in sales for a few years he wanted none of it. All he wanted was to buy me out, get control of the patents, and close me down.

Four years later I heard from an engineer who recently retired from Goulds. I found out the CSV had been blacklisted. The employees were told the CSV makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks, and that any employee who mentioned a CSV would be terminated immediately. Over the years I have heard similar things from the other major pump manufacturers as well. Instead of taking on the Cycle Stop Valve, all these companies went to work on VFD's and tankless controls with a flow switch. They wanted something that could work similar to a CSV, but would not shoot their planned obsolescence in the foot. For pump manufacturers it is better to have something that is expensive, doesn't last very long, and doesn't make pumps last longer either. If every pump came with a Cycle Stop Valve attached, there would only be about 20% as many replacement pumps sold. If all that wasn't true these companies would use their big money and high priced lawyers to shut me up. But they don't want any of those engineers to testify under oath. People would find out that planned obsolescence is the number one design criteria for most manufacturers.

So, you are right to be suspicious. But you are being suspicious of the wrong person or company. Those pump companies didn't get to be so huge by helping make pumps last longer. They may claim all kinds of benefits to their pump over all others. But they know how to make them better, and they know adding a CSV would make them last about 400% longer. They just don't want you to know it. And there are so many out there claiming the CSV doesn't work as advertised or worse yet that it is Snake oil, they don't have to say a thing. If you listen to these ill informed instead of reading reviews of people who have a CSV, you will spend a lot more on your pump system and be out of water often. I don't post a review unless it has pictures, so no one can say I make those up as well. LOL!

Read a few hundred of these. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

Boyce replied while I was typing. He is a one percenter. LOL! I am not kidding about only 1% of pump guys knowing what they are talking about. Thank goodness there are a few good ones on this forum. Thanks guys!
 
Last edited:
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks