Optimizing my upflow softener system. Is this valid thinking?

[BDrivenByDemons]

Let me start by saying my system is running great. I do my yearly maintenance and I'm super satisfied with my setup. Everything is the same as it's been since I posted this thread.

Thread '*** Solved*** Troubleshooting my new 5810SXT softener. Running out of soft water too quickly?'

Apr 1, 2023

***Solution - the bubbles from the air check in the brine tank not closing completely were agitating my resin. When the pros here say the resin can not be disturbed during brining on an upflow it shows they know their stuff. I got 900 gallons of soft water once I fixed that problem. 48k capacity/900 gal = 53.3 grains hardness. When you multiply my actual 42 grains times 1.3 in the high hardness compensation chart you get 54. Right on the money. Hopefully this solution helps someone in the future...***

The details...

Fleck 5810SXT with upflow piston verified
#00 violet injector...

• BDrivenByDemons
• Replies: 34
• Forum: Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers

When I was doing maintenance a few weeks ago I was wondering if some of my cycles are too long? My 12x52 tank is approx 25.5 gallons and the 2cuft of media displace approx 15 gallons so I should have 10.5 gallons of water in there at any time. Can I just adjust my brine draw/slow rinse based on the flow of those which I know. I know my BD is .21GPM and my slow rinse is .275GPM. My 5.3 gallons of brine gets drawn out in about 25 minutes. To push another 10 gallons of rinse through @ .275GPM would be another 36 minutes. That's a grand total of 63 minutes. Follow that up with a rapid rinse @ 3.5GPM for 4 or 5 minutes and I should be good, no? My current BD is 101 minutes. Too long if my thinking is right. Can I verify the BD/SR is long enough by tasting the drain water to see if it's still salty?

Obviously I'm getting a little OCD here but if it saves water why not?

 

[Reach4]

What is your BLFC -- 0.125?? and what is your BF -- 43 minutes? BLFC and BF determine how much salt you use for each regen.

I know my BD is .21GPM and my slow rinse is .275GPM.

How do you measure the BD? With the violet #2 injector, the expected draw rate would be 0.17. So your number is not that far off.

With the nominal draw, I would calculate a BD of 95 to 127 minutes.

. Can I verify the BD/SR is long enough by tasting the drain water to see if it's still salty?

Yes. You can also use a TDS meter to see that the drain water TDS is down close to the TDS of your raw water. It will be more sensitive than your tongue. How close? Maybe 10%?? I don't have a reference on how salt-free you want to be at that point.

My 5.3 gallons of brine gets drawn out in about 25 minutes.

With measured draw time of 25 minutes, your classic BD time would be 25*4=100 minutes, but usually you will be fine at 25*3.5

 

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[BDrivenByDemons]

BF is .28GPM. All GPM numbers I measured back when I did that other thread. They are spot on @ 55 average PSI. I do have a TDS meter that's a good idea. Since it's upflow I feel like once the brine passes the entire bed and is above it I could technically switch right over to RR but that's just me spitballing. Laminar flow being perfect of course. Anything more is a waste of water. Again - spitballing.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

I ran a cycle last night with 90 BD, 5 BW and 5 RR. I used my TDS meter and at the start it was 540 and at the end of BD it was around 800 but the middle of the cycle was out of range on my meter so it was on the decline. Figured that was good enough. Everything was normal at the end of RR. I set my reserve gallons to 0 so I can check hardness with my Hach kit and see if it was enough. I'll post here for anyone curious.

 

[Bannerman]

BF is .28GPM

Fleck BLFC flow rates for Brine Fill are 0.125, 0.25, 0.5 or 1.0 GPM. To ensure the correct quantity of salt is dissolved regardless of incoming water pressure, the BLFC flow retrictor is designed to supply a consistant flow rate over a wide pressure range. (See Flow Control decription and diagram: How does a Flow Control work )

so I should have 10.5 gallons of water in there at any time. Can I just adjust my brine draw/slow rinse based on the flow of those which I know.

Since it's upflow I feel like once the brine passes the entire bed and is above it I could technically switch right over to RR

No!

The quantity of water within the media tank has no direct bearing on programming, but it is the media type, media tank diameter, and the incoming water temperature that directly influences the flow rate needed for Backwash and Rapid Rinse.

Fleck's Brine Draw setting, actually controls two distinctive cycles, Brine Draw and Slow Rinse. While slow rinse flow passing through the injector creates suction using venturi effect to draw the brine from the brine tank, once the brine has been transferred to the media tank, the Draw cycle will then end since the air check valve within the brine tank will close to prevent air from being drawn into the brine tube. The Slow Rinse cycle will continue to slowly push the transferred brine through the remaining resin bed, while at the same time, causing hardness minerals (mainly calcium & magnesium) released from the resin, to be flushed away to drain, along with chloride and excess sodium remaining from the salt brine.

To ensure sufficient resin rinsing, the usual Draw setting will be 4X the amount of time needed to transfer the appropriate quantity of brine from the brine tank. Because Upflow brining requires a much lower flow rate injector (currently 00 Violet) compared to Downflow brining, the Slow rinse flow rate will be much lower, so 4X the Brine Draw time should be the minimum Draw setting that is programmed.

When Slow Rinse time is insufficient, then the softened water supplied directly following each regeneration cycle, will typically taste salty since some amount of sodium, chloride and other minerals will continue to remain within the resin. and will initially flow to faucets and into the water heater.

In your previous thread, you stated that you planned to install a 0.125 GPM BLFC. As you now specify 5.3 gallons brine produced, if using a 0.125 gpm BLFC, this then implies your BF setting is 43 minutes. (43 min X 0.125 gpm = 5.375 gallons) Each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt which means 16.125 lbs salt is dissolved each cycle, which is the appropriiate amount of salt needed to regenerate 48K grains of usable Capacity for a softener containing 2ft3 resin. Since brine transfer requires 25 minutes, then a 100 minute Draw setting is correct.

The purpose for Rapid Rinse is to recompact tthe resin bed at the end of each regeneration cycle, not to actually rinse the resin of remaining contaminants. Recompacting the resin bed, reduces the spaces between resin granules, thereby increasing the contact with the resin while reducing hardness leakage passing through the resin. A 6-minute RR cycle is often sufficient.

In your other thread, you mentioned your unit's controller had been previously programmed for Downflow brining. Because Downflow brining utilizes a different piston than Upflow brining, and also utilizes an alternate injector port configuration, suggest verifying your unit is actually equipped with an Upflow piston, and also verify the injector is configured appropriately. If a Downflow piston is actually installed, then it should be configered as Downflow, thereby allowing replacement of the injector with an alternate higher flow rate version, which would permit a reduced Draw setting, usually 60-minutes.

A Downflow piston will not include any dots on the piston's White or translucent shaft whereas an Upflow piston will be equipped with either a Green or Red dot on the shaft. The injector configuration is specified as a Note at the bottom of page 16 of the Fleck 5810 Service Manual.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Fleck BLFC flow rates for Brine Fill are 0.125, 0.25, 0.5 or 1.0 GPM. To ensure the correct quantity of salt is dissolved regardless of incoming water pressure, the BLFC flow retrictor is designed to supply a consistant flow rate over a wide pressure range. (See Flow Control decription and diagram: How does a Flow Control work )




No!

The quantity of water within the media tank has no direct bearing on programming, but it is the media type, diameter of the media tank, and the incoming water temperature that directly influences the flow rate needed for Backwash and Rapid Rinse.

Fleck's Brine Draw setting, actually controls two distinctive cycles, Brine Draw and Slow Rinse. While slow rinse flow passing through the injector creates suction using venturi effect to draw the brine from the brine tank. once virtually all of the brine has been transferred to the media tank, the Draw cycle will then end since the air check valve within the brine tank will close to prevent air from being drawn up the brine tube. The Slow Rinse cycle will continue to slowly push the transferred brine through the remaining resin bed, while at the same time, causing hardness minerals (mainly calcium & magnesium) released from the resin, to be flushed away to drain, along with the chloride and excess sodium remaining from the salt brine.

To ensure sufficient resin rinsing, the usual Draw setting will be 4X the amount of time needed to transfer the appropriate quantity of brine from the brine tank. Because Upflow brining requires a much lower flow rate injector (currently 00 Violet) compared to Downflow brining, the Slow rinse flow rate will be much lower, so 4X the Brine Draw time should be the minimum Draw setting that is programmed.

When Slow Rinse time is insufficient, then the softened water supplied directly following each regeneration cycle, will typically taste salty since some amount of sodium, chloride and other minerals will continue to remain within the resin. and will initially flow to faucets and will also enter the water heater.

In your previous thread, you stated that you planned to install a 0.125 GPM BLFC. As you now specify 5.3 gallons brine produced, if using a 0.125 gpm BLFC, this then implies your BF setting to be ~ 43 minutes. (43 min X 0.125 gpm = 5.375 gallons) Each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt which means 16.125 lbs salt is dissolved each cycle, which is the appropriiate amount of salt needed to regenerate 48K grains of usable Capacity for a softener containing 2ft3 resin. Since brine transfer requires 25 minutes, then a 100 minute Draw setting is correct.

The purpose for Rapid Rinse is to recompact tthe resin bed at the end of each regeneration cycle, not to actually rinse the resin of remaining contaminants. Recompacting the resin bed, reduces the spaces between resin granules, thereby increasing the contact with the resin, thereby reducing hardness leakage passing through the resin. A 6-minute RR cycle is often sufficient.

In your other thread, you mentioned your unit's controller had previously programmed for Downflow brining. Because Downflow brining utilizes a different piston than Upflow brining, and also utilizes an alternate injector port configuration, suggest verifying your unit is actually equipped with an Upflow piston, and also verify the injector is configured appropriately.

A Downflow piston will not include any dots on the piston's White or translucent shaft whereas an Upflow piston will be equipped with either a Green or Red dot on the shaft. The injector configuration is specified as a Note at the bottom of page 16 of the Fleck 5810 Service Manual.

I am thinking the amount of water in the media tank directly dictates cycle times. I'm not saying I'm right but flow rates multiplied by time gives gallons so a reasonable number could be derived from that IMO.

My flow rates were all measured when I created that other thread. I didn't just go by the color of the injectors or DLFC. I measured 5 gallons and marked a bucket and ran cycles. All my numbers in the linked thread are exact.

Since I have an upflow if the flow in the tank is laminar then the brine will be passed completely through the media well before its completely pushed out of the tank. This seems like wasted slow rinse time to me. Why not just start backwashing and get it out asap if it's no longer in contact with the media?

Again, my BF was measured and I currently have it set for 19 minutes @ .28GPM.

I don't recall ever saying this was a downflow setup. I have a blue dot on my piston.

The injector is in the correct port for upflow.

 

[Bannerman]

I don't recall ever saying this was a downflow setup.

You are correct. My apologies. I mistakenly based my statement on a comment from someone else who had interrupted the conversation in your prior thread.

I didn't just go by the color of the injectors or DLFC.

I didn't specify the DLFC flow rate nor the injector flow rate, only the specific flow rate for each BLFC flow restrictor that Fleck offers. The BLFC requires a consistent flow rate regardless of water pressure since that flow rate will directly govern the amount of water that will flow into the brine tank for each 1-minute of Brine Fill. The water quantity governs the amount of salt that will be dissolved which is directly conditional on the amount of capacity to be regenerated each cycle. As stated in your previous thread, to prevent the injector from incorrectly acting as the brine fill restrictor, the BLFC fow rate is to be lower than the injector flow rate.

As each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt, then a 0.125 gpm BLFC will result in 0.375 lbs salt per minute of BF. A 0.25 gpm BLFC will result in 0.75 lbs/min, 0.5 gpm = 1.5 lbs/min & 1 gpm = 3lbs/min. Because the BLFC (and DLFC) is directional, to function correctly, each need to be installed in the correct orientation, with the BLFC flow numbers facing toward the control valve.

if the flow in the tank is laminar then the brine will be passed completely through the media well before its completely pushed out of the tank.

Both the removal of hardness and the restoration of the resin's capacity, is not instantaneous, but is a process. The hardness minerals that were removed by adhering to the resin granules surface prior to regeneration, and the chloride and excess sodium from the brine, will be flushed away to drain over time requiring more than 1 rinse pass through the resin. As stated above, to achieve full elimination of those elements prior to restoring soft water flow to fixtures, will typically require the slow rinse phase of regeneration to be 3X the amount of time needed to transfer the brine from the brine tank to the media tank.