One for the books

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Dunbar Plumbing

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Marlin336 said:
I guess they misplaced those straps and used bricks instead.


It's amazing how some people will do something dangerous before they'll actually reach for their pocket and spend a dime to make it safe. :mad:


Here's one for the books.


Today, up in Cincinnati, 2 story 2 family......shouldn't be there to begin with but that's another story.

Clogged second floor kitchen sink. Run my cable, opens up at 34 feet, great! I clean up everything and get that stainless steel looking like new.

Go downstairs towards the basement, hear water cascading. < Not good but I as an optimist think "Great, busted pipe! More work!"

Not exactly. The first floor was vacant, I open the door to this downstairs kitchen and the entire floor, the kitchen cabinet doors popped open, black sludge in the double sink, sludge on the cabinet walls like there was an explosion.

Son of a *****!!!! I walk in there, throw my bag of tools up on the counter in an angered fashion, the entire end outlet waste blows off sending even more black sludge and wastewater all over my legs/feet because I'm right in front of the cabinet now. Now I'm pissed.....hook that end outlet waste up so I can use my cable machine top down through the basket strainer so I can have hyrdropressure against the clog and sure enough, blow a hole through the plastic trap......and I just reworked this drain 2 months earlier.

This by no means is not the first time this has happened to me with a clog moving and stopping at a lower elevation.....it has happened many times in my years as a plumber.

It's friday, I've worked way too many hours this week and then this happened. I got it open, cleaned up the kitchen floor "within reason" even though it took 2 towels and 3 rolls of paper towels, it still needs to be thoroughly cleaned again along with the entire basement.

When I talk to this property owner that lives in the 937 area code....I'm going to push hard to see if he'll let me run that stack in 2" along with busting up that concrete floor at the base and get rid of that constriction like they all are where smaller pipe increases to larger.

There is no way I could of controlled that situation short of putting towels and rocks in the double bowl sink.....but then the tubular piping underneath would of blown apart anyway.....and a lot sooner. :mad:


Therapy is needed at this time.
 
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BAPlumber

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RUGGED said:
:That was when the TRUE plumbers existed. Where skill in the trade was tops and you really had to know your skills of the profession to make a living.

Now, a glue connection here a push-fit sharkbite there, crimp this and compression tighten that, off you go. Plastic was the downfall of the profession of plumbing in so many ways. That point can be argued to death but the reality is less knowledge is needed to perform the task of plumbing.......whereby that makes the average person more capable of doing plumbing without following the implied knowledge the trade is really worth.

I don't believe that less knowledge is the downfall of plumbing. The average can put pipe together but, can they plumb? A Plumber is responsible for the health and safety of the public. Is the home owner?

I also believe that the plumbing systems in the past were inferior. the ability to install them were, I consider, brilliant. most plumbers today can't do half of what they did. They also didn't have the codes we now have. I won't say we are better technically today, but I will say we are probably better health wise.
 

TMB9862

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Cass said:
Can you expand on that?
The only example I can think of is galvanized piping. Unless you start getting into polybutylene and other short lived experimental systems.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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In terms of Materials...
I worked commercial plumbing before going to a residential shop.
Commercial is all cast iron, copper & hard piping.
On a residential bathroom group the 3" under the floor is in tight spaces, you have to consider all three dimensions and incorporate your pitch over distance, usually in your head.
When you find out your 3"X2" cast iron wet vent connection is a slight bit off on CI - your loosen the no-hub clamps & rotate, or rotate it in the hub.
When you discover your glued 3"X2" pvc wet vent is off, you cut it out, often having to cut other fittings out in the process because they're so tightly packed together there's no "meat" left between fittings to glue a new one on.
When PVC first got code approval I'm sure there were LOADS of old-timers proclaiming "That plastic stuff is rediculous...a child can do that".
There are the new things that I won't try 'till I hear they work over time, like PEX/crimps, Sharkbite.
But then, I'd sooner use them than galvy on water/drainage.
 

Patrick88

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If plastic is the down fall then was does "real Plumber" make a mess of it? I have not used pex more than a few feet,but it is nice to tell what pipe is what from the color. I have seen some well done old school plumbing, and i have seen some major junk. I have seen plastic not glued that lasted 5 yrs and i have seen cast iron with no oakum just lead. I also seen no lead just oakum.
I'm sure every older plumber has said the stuff from my day was the best. The guys that used lead pipe I'm sure said it. Hell in Beverly Ma. they pulled the old tree stumps out that were city sewer about 5-6yrs ago now i want something that lasts that long. The one true thing is everybody likes what they are using now and when something else comes along it's crap. This is the 21st century and I'm damn sure new stuff will be coming out fast because everybody wants something better and cheaper. Copper prices are high and the consumer wants the prices low. I have not started to use plastic for water lines yet but I will plumb my house in pex because it looks nice and is easy who doesn't like Quick straight shots no fittings. If you charge by the fitting then stop and charge higher per hour.
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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RUGGED said:
:mad: That was when the TRUE plumbers existed. Where skill in the trade was tops and you really had to know your skills of the profession to make a living.

Now, a glue connection here a push-fit sharkbite there, crimp this and compression tighten that, off you go. Plastic was the downfall of the profession of plumbing in so many ways. That point can be argued to death but the reality is less knowledge is needed to perform the task of plumbing.......whereby that makes the average person more capable of doing plumbing without following the implied knowledge the trade is really worth.


Heh, see what I mean. There must of been a time delay on this thread.

Grumpy's last statement is a solid one that he knows exactly what I'm speaking of.



Let me clarify something as well....I entered the profession of plumbing when plastic was hitting big in the 80's......so I missed all the hard work above...when they was starting to transition pipe material choices on the 2nd roughs to plastic or all copper. But I'm open-minded enough to know that all that still exists that was built back in those days was extremely difficult. Where roughing in a house probably took a week.

Now enter into that equation instead of mission couplings and service weight gaskets......try lead pours on horizontal runs or verticals inbetween joists because you have to turn out a tee to pick up that toilet with a lead bend with a turnout to pick up the lav and shower back in the day.

And I complain that I have to remove this stuff to replace with fast and easy, light PVC? Pfffffft! We as plumbers don't truly realize how good we got it....compared to the old-timers that started their day loading a road-wagon of cast iron fittings, all different sections of piping with hubbed ends.......no wheeler snap cutter either folks; hammer and chisel.....you're screwed/pitching a once good piece of cast iron if the crack walks up or down on the section you just spent 5 minutes tapping.

And for the galvy drains and water lines mentioned......sometimes you can just tell how hard of a time they had installing that the first time.....kinda makes my complaining to tear it out pretty insensitive most times knowing that a wrench had to tighten every single one of those connections numerous times, that they had to make sure their allowances didn't screw them on the final resting spot of tees or fittings.

Try holding a 4' section of 4" XH cast iron horizontally while someone takes hangar iron and straps it up; that's a two man job period. Now, one guy can run plastic like it's nobody's business. Not to mention packing all of those hubs with oakum......working with hot lead, having the right equipment to pour horizontal and vertical runs in tight spots along with open ones...

Some of those jobs back in the day didn't have sawzalls and electric tools; those were hand cut notches in the most awkward of places. Ackkkk!!!

You really think they had a electric threading machine at the truck when they had a piece of 2" galvanized and figured out when they tightened it down that it's going to be a 1/2" short?

No, they hand banged every damn one of those new threads off a long section of 2" or 1/2" water lines to make that happen. Talk about upper body strength between the two aspects of water and drainage.....DAMN!

If homeowners/property owners/ casual diy'rs or handymen had to do the above......the profession of plumbing would be secured completely to those licensed in this profession because of the amount of knowledge and numerous skills needed to perform the above tasks.

It's not like that now.......anyone can buy a stick of PVC and glue fittings to it. Can a DIY'r tuck an entire bath group nicely in a joist span over 10' with the proper amount of fall and not be dropping below the joist at the end of that run in PVC....? Probably not without doing it 3 times over.....but plastic runs relatively light speed over running cast iron from days ago.

I should be getting paid for this history lesson I just typed out to those who question the past. I entered this profession in the mid 80's and missed all the above.....but I still realize how hard that work truly was.



And for my "one for the books"........I just talked to the fellow and he's letting me rework that drain in 2" to solve that problem once and for all.
 
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GrumpyPlumber

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Rugged, same here.
I was lucky when I started out, to have the priveledge of working with "depression era" plumbers, TRUE old-timers that told me stories of guys being fired for having wasted a single fitting.
Times back then were so tight that a fitting could offset a fraction of your weeks pay.
Their mentality rolled on for decades later, where great pride was taken in your ability to plumb fast, effectively and efficiently.
To add to it, we groan about using joint runners with lead/oakum, before that they had to wipe melted lead by hand which was an absolute art form in itself, now rendered obsolete.
I laugh whenever I hear an apprentice whine about using snap cutters...just over the mental image of him using a chisel the old school way.
Six months ago I listened to a kid in line at a supply house complain about working with 1/2" CPVC in a tight spot...I lost it, I was in stitches, I thought he was joking, apparently he wasn't.
We DO have it lucky, I bet the over-all life expectancy for a plumber 50 years ago was probably 10-15 years less than the average occupation, between labor intensity and chemical exposures (much more lead back then to name one).
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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"Used" to have to do a lead shower pan right before I got my journeymen's
license. All I had to do was a lead pour joint and copper jig so they knew I could do offsets.

Now....it's a box with 2" cast iron and mission couplings. You have to connect 6 pipes into 3 solid/air tight connections but you have to know your math to know what size pieces of pipe you need to ask for to fit your jig.

I went ahead and donated 3 grand to the KY code course program recently in my area so that these students along with the inspectors have funds to buy material like cast iron/fittings/wood and whatever else they need to get our future tradesmen educated.

I felt that it was necessary on my part since no plumber electively has ever given, just taken from those programs. I am only a handful of plumbers that successfully went 4 years in the Kentucky apprenticeship and lack of funding is what ended that program. Hopefully my contribution gets put to good use.

And no.......I didn't do it on a political front either. I just do not want to see this program die off as it is so useful for these plumbers trying to learn from their plumbing bible.
 
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