nonmechanical female desperate for advice on new pump and tank for well

[Panda]

Something on my well pump or tank failed and flooded my underground cement well room. Both tank and pump are old and rusted so I want to replace everything. The well is 220 V and the pipe that was in the hole was about 70 feet when pulled out.

I have had two pump guys look at it. Guy 1 says he wants to put in a Sta-rite 32 gallon fiberglass tank and a 1/2 hp berkeley submersible pump with new pipe going into well for $2500 total. This guy works from an hour away.

Guy 2 says he would put in a metal tank x-trol 202 or 203 (so 20 or 26 or 32 gallon depending on what we want) and a Gould 1/2 horsepower submersible pump (he said there are two kinds of Gould pumps...either the newer style they make using stainless steel or the older style that uses brass and he says that the brass one is much better). His total cost would be $2000. This guy is local in my little city and can also work on the piece of garbage oil furnace heating system that the previous owner n***er-rigged himself. Guy 1 seems to know nothing about heating systems or oil furnaces. So I would be needing Guy 2 again for other work.

Do you guys have any opinions as to what I should do? Do you have a preference between fiberglass versus metal bladder tank? The first guy says use fiberglass because the underground room is humid. The second guy says he always uses the x-trol metal one and doesn't have problems with it. Does it really matter? Won't the bladder give out before rust on the outside of a metal tank happens anyway?

Also, does anybody know what the story is with the Gould stainless steel versus brass submersible pump? I can't find any information about it on the internet and those bastards at Gould won't talk to people who are not professionals. That really makes me want to not buy their product. Also, does anyone know if the Gould motors are water-filled? I don't want oil or propylene glycol in the motor that could leak into the tank. I know propylene glycol is supposed to be food safe but I used to work somewhere that pumped propylene glycol into the air to create a smoke effect. It used to destroy my vocal chords so I absolutely f***ing hate propylene glycol and want nothing to do with it.

Is there anything else that I should do or not do that I don't know about? Thank you for any advice that you can give me.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I would run away from anyone that tried to sell me a berkley pump. Either of the Goulds pumps are good. Any of those tanks are reputable.

All the good pump motors come from the factory filled with a propylene glycol solution.

Polypropylene or ethylene glycol is used on every car and truck on the road today. You would be hard pressed to avoid it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Panda]

What is bad about the Berkeley pumps?

I tried to research different pumps online and could not find much of anything. Have you had bad experience with Berkeley? I did read somewhere that someone said that Gould isn't good anymore but they are just relying on their previous good reputation. But guy 2 said he has tried many pumps out over the years of installing them in our local area and that he really likes the brass Goulds because he doesn't have call backs for them very often compared to others. He seemed believable to me.

P.S. If Berkeley is no good then is hf myers also bad as well as anything Sta-rite since they are all owned by the same big company? What do you think of variable frequency drives?

 

[WellWaterProducts]

My gut feeling is to go with the local guy. Most professional pump dealers can offer a 5 year product warranty on the pump which is extended through the manufacturer. I can testify that the Amtrol tanks have long-lasting bladders. I have seen very few, if any, of the StaRite tanks in the field around here.

As far as pump manufacturer reputations: every company is making subtle, and in some case drastic, changes to their product strategies. It's like buying stocks- past performance does not guarantee future performance. I hope, as a pump dealer, that they are viewing the products as durable.

 

[Panda]

Update

So here is what I decided to do. No one around here stocks the tank I want. So I am going to buy it online from a really inexpensive place that is in my state. They can get it to the nearest big city and then I am going to drive there to pick it up.

For the pump, I am going to buy from this place that has done good by me in the past. I can literally walk over to them. And then for installation they gave me the number of a young guy who installs these for people on the side and is really cheap. He doesn't have overhead so doesn't need to charge me the fees the other guys do. Since it isn't fixing anything, I feel fine about letting him do it. Doesn't really seem that much to it. If I had ever put a few in, I would honestly just do it myself. I wouldn't try to fix a broken one but installing new components is not nearly as difficult as fixing something broken.

I haven't talked to the young man yet so I can't update you for price but will later. I am determined not to give someone around $1200 just for a few hours of labor. That is basically $200/hour labor. That is ridiculous. After college, masters, and teaching credential nobody pays me more than $25 and parents expect me to tutor their lazy brats for free. The hell if I am paying someone 8 times what I make. I refuse. By the way, I should add that I don't mind giving extra help for the ones who try but it is usually the parents with children who make zero effort who expect unbelievable amounts of free tutoring. Their sense of entitlement is unbelievable. In most cases, they are the same kids who are the biggest trouble in class because they want to goof off, which is why they are behind. Funny how people who install things do not give their time away for free but I am supposed to or else I am a horrible human being! Anyway.

 

[Valveman]

Berkeley, Sta-Rite, Myers, and about a dozen other brands are made by Pentair, and they are all the same. Goulds and Pentair use the same motor. Goulds calls it Centri-pro, and Pentair calls it Pentek, but they are made at the same factory. Goulds Stainless Steel and Brass are the same pumps. The only difference is one has a brass fitting to screw into, the other has Stainless.

Stay away from the Sta-Rite tanks. Many pump installers have told me these are failing miserably. You can’t go wrong with Amtrol. They invented the diaphragm tank, and are still the best.

You are smart to check pricing. You can get that pump and tank for around $600. It is usual for a pump man to charge twice his cost. But $2000 sounds extremely high, unless the well is hard to get at or there is some other problem with the install.

Stay away from whoever mentioned the variable frequency drive! That is just another way to get as much of your money as possible. Also that size tank is not large enough for a 10 GPM pump. Small tanks cause the pump to cycle itself to death. When I was still doing things the old fashioned way, I would have used at least a WX250 or 251. Larger tanks cause less cycling.

The best way to do this would be to use a Cycle Stop Valve and a WX102, like in the picture to the left. The Cycle Stop Valve stops the pump from cycling, so you don’t need a very large pressure tank. I know you would like the constant pressure from the CSV. However, all the installers you mentioned are still using pressure tanks that are too small, and mentioned variable frequency drives. So they are about 20 years behind.

It is not what you pay up front, but how long the equipment last that really cost you. If you eliminate the cycling and your pump and tank last 20 years, it saves you a LOT of money over replacing a pump and tank every 5 years or so. Having the experience to know the little tricks for installing can also make your pump system last longer. But it sounds like the kid down the street knows as much as the first two installers, which is sad.

[video=youtube;djYEdL6an5g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djYEdL6an5g[/video]

 

[Panda]

Hi Valveman,

Is xtrol the amtrol, cus that is what I bought. I did want to buy the 250 but the cement hole that opens to the pump room is only 16x20 or 20X20 at best if we remove an old rusted ladder that leads down into it (which might mean cutting the rusted bolts off and then having to move the ladder over to bolt into virgin cement). So the best we could do was the 202 or 203. I ended up choosing the 202 XL because the 203 doesn't offer relatively that much more water storage relative to the additional height and cost. I got the 202XL for under 200 and no delivery cost cus I picked it up.

I don't know what pump I am getting but it is not Berkeley, Sta-rite, Myers, or Gould. It is sold at a store literally across the field from me. The man said it is stainless with a Franklin motor. I am sorry, I can't remember the name.

Is there anything wrong with using a Cycle Stop Valve with the 202 xl? About the cycle stop valve--one guy said he has never done one and doesn't know about it and one said about the vfd and such when I asked that he has been doing what he does the same way for 30 years and it works just fine so I figure he doesn't do csv's either or he would have said he uses something he likes better.

You are right...I will be spending under $600 for tank and pump. That is a pretty fat profit margin the local people are getting. I don't mean to be cheap about it but I am figuring I am going to need my money for some broken pipes that I am going to discover as soon as we get water pumping out of the well again. Our heating system has never worked really either so we definitely have to fix it because that is half th problem maybe of why the pump failed to begin with. Of all that stuff, the only thing I can do on the cheap is the pump and tank install. Doesn't really seem like there is that much to it, either, compared to some home repair work because our system is pretty basic. We just need the tank hook up and the pump dropped down and hooked up. The complicated work is going to be finding and fixing any broken pipes that we might have. I am so scared to get it running again because there might be a flood of water that appears somewhere.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I didn't know berkley got sucked up by pentair too. They make the same junk sold under the flo-tec and simer brands.

You are overlooking a couple of expenses which might suprise you. If were going to replace the pump, I would be sure to replace the wire too, which is not cheap. You didn't mention anything about the tank tee, drop pipe, pressure switch, pressure gauge, etc, etc. so you have some things to think about.

 

[Panda]

Yeah, it is pretty funny if you look at the Berkeley and hfmyers websites because they both sell something called an intellikit and it is so obvious that they are the exact same product marketed under two different brands.

 

[Valveman]

Those same pumps are sold under so many different names, that the one you are looking at could very well be one of them. The WX202 is a good tank. It is just not large enough for a 10 GPM pump. And yes the CSV works great with the 202. Add the CSV1W and it will make the pump think the 202 is a huge tank.

The other day a customer of mine brought in a Utilitech pump purchased at one of the big box stores. It had a Franklin motor. However, the Franklin motor had plastic ends on it. I had never seen this before. So Franklin has cheapened up the motors they sell at the box stores, even more than they have already cheapened up their standard motor. Pumps and motors are no longer made to last, but rather to barely last through the warranty period. And pumps from the big box stores have even shorter warranty periods. Any extra cycling (small tank) shortens the life even more. They spend a lot of money advertising and promoting Variable Frequency Drives like the “Intellikit” you mentioned. So do you really think those things “Extend the life of pumps and motors, or save energy”, as they claim. I think not!!

The CSV really does extend the life of pumps and motors and use much smaller pressure tanks. The CSV even extends the life of pumps that are designed for even shorter lives, to be sold at the box stores. That is why you won’t see any big pump companies promoting the CSV, and also why only the most reputable pump installers promote CSV’s. There are several companies making cheap knockoffs of the CSV. Which does prove the idea of the CSV is good, but gives us a bad reputation when these other so called “constant pressure valves” fail to perform like the real Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[Panda]

Valveman,

The pump I am thinking about buying is called a Lancaster. Ever heard of it?

Can the Cycle Stop Valve be put on AFTER the system is installed or is it easier to do before?

Can I do the Cycle Stop Valve installation myself? I am female so keep that in mind. I know a lot about cooking and crocheting and not so much about mechanics. But I do most of the stuff around the house because my guy travels 90% of the year but I need a set of instructions to follow. The instructions have to be thorough. Most of the guys I know never read instructions and kind of wing it and do great that way. I can't do that. But sometimes I can figure things out they can't because I bother to read about it. But I definitely cannot install anything without written directions. When my boyfriend and I try to fix things around the house it is pretty funny cus he'll just start pulling things apart and doing stuff. Then he'll get stuck somewhere and start screaming and cussing. He'll get worked up into a real fit over it. I am usually looking over his shoulder watching cus he wants to do it. So I watch until he gets stuck and starts screaming then I'll say explain what you are doing and what isn't working. Then I'll read the instructions or look it up on the internet and will tell him, well, it says here... And that usually solves the problem. When he starts cussing and getting mad is usually when I take over until things start going right and then he wants me to get out of the way so he can finish. Men and women are sooo different. When I get stuck on instructions, I call him and tell him what I am doing and then he gives me practical advice that isn't in the instructions and that usually solves my problem.

 

[Valveman]

Lancaster is one of the few pump companies that hasn't been bought out (yet). Good pumps! They gave me this letter.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/pdf/pumpman_1.pdf

The CSV would be easy to install while plumbing in the tank. But you can cut it in later if you want. If you can install the tank, you can certainly install the CSV. We have good written instructions, and we actually answer the phone if you need more help.

 

[Panda]

They are good people, aren't they? Seems like a very honest company that really wants to make the best product they can. Like you said, one of the old time companies that hasn't been bought out... and for whom making a good product is as important as making a profit. But they are in Amish country. I think maybe there might be a different way of approaching things out there. Maybe more old fashioned?

I bought a propane tank from an Amish guy and he really did right by me in terms of both price and service. A lot of the Amish and Brethren that I have dealt with have been really good, decent, down to earth folk. The kind of people who give a fair day's work for a fair day's wage. I am sure there are some bad apples among them (I have heard of some charlatans among them, too) so it is always best to be prudent but so far my dealings with them have been good. One of the local propane companies had an ancient piece of junk tank on our property and wanted to charge us ridiculous propane prices for the dubious privilege of having their old piece of sh*t rusting on our land. So I told the propane company to come and get their tank off our land. I am stubborn. My first month in the house I went without hot water for about a month while I found a company willing to sell me a tank and while I waited through a snow storm for the weather to clear up so the guy could bring it out. I have been paying about half the price per gallon that the original propane company had wanted to charge me. I fill our tank up once a year when the prices are cheapest. And since I own the tank I can pick the cheapest company and no company can tell me that I have to have it "topped off" by them whenever they feel like it whether I want propane or not(which is of course when the prices are highest...which isn't necessarily when they are buying their propane.) It has been two years and the amount of money we saved on propane has already equaled the cost of the tank. So the new tank has now payed itself off.

And in case anybody is thinking that I am preventing the poor propane company from making money, that is true. But by buying my propane from a small mom and pop operation, I am helping a regular American family be able to stay in business. These large businesses are often run inefficiently. Their workers don't make a very good living and have to bow down to their boss but the company presidents usually make a small fortune. A small family propane business can charge less because they have less overhead and they are usually run more efficiently. Instead of paying a receptionist, the wife answers the phone from their house. So I don't feel bad at all about sourcing the cheapest propane I can buy. I don't think these big companies should get our business because they are usually unscrupulous with their practices and overpriced.

It is hard work doing your homework on this stuff. But it sure does pay off in the long run.

I am going to have help from a young man who installs a lot of pumps and tanks on the side after his day job and I will ask him if he could do a CSV.

 

[Valveman]

If you or your installer need any help, I would be glad to talk you through it. Just because you can't get a larger tank through the opening doesn't mean you can't tie more than one tank together. However, you could fill the whole room with tanks and it won't do as good a job as the CSV and one tank.

 

[Ballvalve]

I cannot find any Lancaster pumps on the internet for sale. Does someone have a link to a store that peddles them?

 

[Panda]

For where to buy the Lancaster pump, I would call Lancaster Pumps directly and ask them if they have a local distributor in your area. Call them on Monday, remember Pennsylvania is 3 hours ahead of California so you can start calling pretty early in the morning but not too late in the afternoon. Keep me updated if you found a local distributor. One way or another, I am sure that they have a way to get their pumps to you. They told me they ship pumps all of the way to the Bermudas.

 

[Masterpumpman]

The Pside-Kick kit includes everything you need including a WX-102 tank. It's the simplest, smallest and best investment in your water system. The young man who installs a lot of pumps and tanks can install the Pside-Kick and adjust it with no problem. Cycle Stop Valves will help hime by email or telephone if needed. You'll love the constant pressure.

Most pumps are OK but don't let anyone sell you a VFD (variable Flow Pump) because it's a technological nightmare as well as costly. One person suggested replacing the submersible cable, If it looks OK I would just reverse the ends (bottom top top and top to the bottom of the well.

Pump installers that don't know about Cycle Stop Valves are behind the times.

 

[Panda]

I got the pump lowered in the well. It was really fun figuring it out. I am not being sarcastic. I really had a good time doing it. It made me feel really good to tackle it on my own without paying anyone. Especially because everybody said I couldn't do it. I did have to get help with shoving the pipe end onto the piece that connects to the pump because I wasn't strong enough. But I didn't get any help with the set up except for physical help with feeding my pipe while I lowered the nylon rope down the well casing.

I have not hooked it up to the tank, yet, though. I haven't quite figured that part out.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Most of the wells here are over 200 feet deep and the pump hangs on steel pipe, so you can see where the labor involved might vary greatly from place to place.