Noble EZ - Better than any Uncoupling Membrane? Looks like

[JohnfrWhipple]

I was searching tonight for a better option to uncoupling membranes and stumbled upon this product from Noble Company called Noble EZ. This photo from Tiger Mountain Tile showing a typical installation.

Photo (Source) shows Dal Tiles custom product line in a purple colour - Dal RCI

I read up on the product on Tiger Mountain's web page and found the blog post very well written and eye opening. Who knew there are no rules or guidelines for uncoupling membranes. With all the chatter about Ditra, Spider Web and Strata Mat by so many it's nice to see another pro looking for a better option.

I love Noble's products. I'm a little miffed I'm hearing about it third person but .... who cares.

Noble Company's review of the membrane lists this:

"Protects interior installations of thin-set tile from cracking. EZ relieves the stress caused by lateral movement in the substrate. Also helps preserve the tile patterns by bridging control joints. Designed for resitential use only." *

* Source

Features & Benefits

• Single Sheet Membrane
• Ensures uniform thickness & quality
• Minimizes workmanship variables
• No curing - Install tile immediately
• Protects Tile from Cracking
• Outperforms uncoupling membranes
• Use Over Common Substrates
• Use NobleBond adhesive for bonding to OSB
• Can be used in partial coverage

It's nice to know it outperforms uncoupling membranes. I bet it's the same price as them too.

I wonder if there are any restrictions on thin-set like with Schluter's Ditra and Ditra XL. I have to say I don't like the spec about setting and tiling the same day. Personally I think this is a mistake.


Product Data

Overview

• Product Description (pdf)

Installation

• Installation Instructions (pdf)

Technical

• A118-12 Product Testing (pdf)

CAD Details

• Wood Substrate 19.4 on center Joist - Noble EZ
  • pdf
  • dwg
  • all (zip)
• Wood Substrate 24 on center Joist - Noble EZ
  • pdf
  • dwg
  • all (zip)

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

NobleSeal TS and NobleSeal CIS are blue in colour. "King of the Sheet Membranes"

 

[Sponsor]

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

NobleDeck and Noble EZ look the same. Just that the NobleDeck is thicker.

NobleWall Seal is purple in colour. Much like the look of Dal Tiles Noble EZ private label.

 

[Eurob]

'' Outperforms uncoupling membranes ''

I wonder how they got that benefit or feature tested .

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

The folks at Noble have been doing this long before Uncoupling membranes came to be. And an uncoupling membrane is not really a crack isolation membrane. Regardless of what the retail store people tend to say.

It's printed online. How can that be wrong?

If you have never called Noble to discuss uncoupling vs Crack Isolation you are missing out on key info. Eric at Noble is one of the men that help define the tests and specs these various products need to take.

Call this number. Ask for Eric. Tell him John said to call him. Then make the choice yourself what's better. A product not tested as a crack isolation or one that does. A product that is approved as waterproofing material or one that is not recommended by the maker. Your call. Decide after talking to Eric.

Noble Company Call Toll Free: 800-878-5788

You can order the stuff from Noble I think. Have it shipped in the US for $5.00. I think many online sellers of uncoupling membranes are not Official Suppliers. With that you have deviated from printed instructions I think of many of these companies requirements.

Talk with Eric. The dude know his stuff.

 

[Eurob]

Not the first time I read Eric's input on industry's products , John . I know he knows his products ..... and more .

I am curious how the not reliable numbers of an uncoupling membrane tests be compared -- outperformed -- by the full bond of a .8mm sheet membrane .

There must be something in the works of defining what an uncoupled membrane is , I guess.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Not the first time I read Eric's input on industry's products , John . I know he knows his products ..... and more .

I am curious how the not reliable numbers of an uncoupling membrane tests be compared -- outperformed -- by the full bond of a .8mm sheet membrane .

There must be something in the works of defining what an uncoupled membrane is , I guess.

You would think. But to my understanding there is not. Just like all the bull shit over Vapour barrier Sandwiches. There is no study. No test. Nothing. Not even a date to start a study. Just more only online opinions and views shared round and round until people believe them to be true.

I read on a Logging Company's wen page something about testing Aircraft Cables. I was researching my Zip-Line build years back. The quote was this.

One test is worth a thousand expert opinions.


This online expert testing the Vortex Fold of an orange sheet
membrane. We debated this forever on Garden Web back in the day.
People call it Hydrophobic and show an old man holding a cup.
​

Took me 2-3 years before I could do it. Then I learned the trick. It's all in the static electricity of a fresh roll. I was wrong in telling this fellow it could not be done. I tried forever and could not do it. Turns out I was using scraps of membrane and not fresh stuff off the roll. Try and do it after wiping the membrane down with water. Hydrophobic my ass.... I guess it helps sell material online. Maybe sells more e-books. Who knows why people post what they do.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions. - Wernher von Braun, 1972

"Testing is an area often neglected or cut in projects. When nearing the end of a project where budgets and time are tight, it is often tempting to cut the testing phase and rely on the opinion of your team. However, you will never know the quality of a product or service until you have tested it. We can all speculate on what we think the result will be, but no matter how expert, it is still only a matter of opinion. Always allow enough time in your project for testing and rework." * Source of quote -

10 More Quotes That Make You a Better Project Manager​

Or you can blindly follow printed guidelines like gospel. I prefer to follow the advice of Wernher von Braun.

Wernher Magnus Maximilian, Freiherr von Braun (March 23, 1912 – June 16, 1977) was a German and Americanaerospace engineer and space architect. He was one of the leading figures in the development of rocket technology in Germany during World War II and, subsequently, in the United States. He is credited as being one of the "Fathers of Rocket Science".

 

[Eurob]

You would think. But to my understanding there is not. Just like all the bull shit over Vapour barrier Sandwiches. There is no study. No test. Nothing. Not even a date to start a study. Just more only online opinions and views shared round and round until people believe them to be true.

John , Someone out there knows about what is going on -- tests with accurate data -- , but we don't . We have to rely on dots , patterns or etc. for now, or keep inquiring as much as possible . Reading about them -- TDS , technical bulletins , etc. -- is one way of learning of the constant changes in the industry guidelines . Changing opinions about the old or new products -- what works or not -- is another way . You just cannot brush with one hand the old products and embrace with the other the new ones .

If you have to rely only on data from specific tests , then we should follow them blindly -- no questions asked -- . To date , recommendations but NOT certainties , are changing at such a rapid speed that the reliability is constantly in question , if you know what I mean .

I'm glad you rely on figure leaders but ......... Manufacturers have their own interests in play , so they tend to put more sugar on their own products when you ask them about the performances , or .......... not share anything beyond a certain point . There are many people involved in building a reliable industry and they all deserve the credit for it .

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

....technical bulletins , etc. -- is one way of learning of the constant changes in the industry guidelines . .....

I agree Roberto. Just like the technical bulletins posting warnings about grouting too soon large format tile. A 8"x10" sheet taped to your supplier counter. Yet the packaging on the grouts exclude the info. It's not enough to follow instructions as you and I know - it's more about being in the trenches and getting this added info weekly from our suppliers.

 

[Jadnashua]

The suitability of any product for use with tile often comes down to the tests that are defined for the assembly, and for tile, that is the Robinson Floor Test cycle. You build your floor and tile it, then run the floor tester over it, multiple rotations and then add more weight. You keep going until something breaks, or you've reached what has been considered the highest standard. You can compare the effectiveness of an uncoupling membrane by how high of a test result they get on the Robinson Floor Test verses the same floor structure with other approved methods (direct bonded, cbu, etc.). So, show me their test results on the Robinson Floor tester, and we'll have a good comparison with other membranes sold as uncoupling membranes.

FWIW, Mapei has one of only two high tech floor testers that are an improvement over the Robinson Floor tester, and they donated one to the TCNA so that they could also test, and as a backup. This machine, in addition to performing the same thing as the Robinson Floor tester, can test tiled assemblies made from some of the large porcelain slabs out there (IOW, it can operate over a much larger surface area) and, it has the ability to spread out to simulate an expansion crack. It may be that this new generation of machines is what will bring in validation and testing to support standards for uncoupling membranes and crack isolation so people can see how they actually stack up.

But, where are the Robinson Floor testing results of this membrane where they claim it works better. Better than what? They are not all created equal. About 20% of a sheet of Ditra is open air spaces that can accommodate differential movement. Air spaces are easier to stretch or compress verses an elastic membrane.

As a reference, TCNA-153-09 test report on DitraXL, with a SINGLE layer of 3/4" plywood over 24"OC joists using 6x6" porcelain tile, got an extra heavy rating (14-cycles) using a modified thinset to hold it down, and unmodified thinset to hold the tiles with a modified grout (all per the installation instructions manual). How does the Noble product stand up under similar circumstances?

That some people say the products don't work...BS.