- NO WATER: new JET pump, lines test good?? Help!

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by Sawgarage, May 23, 2015.

  1. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Hello All, I've read a lot here, and want to thank all the posters and contributors... Good stuff :)
    What started it all...:

    Had a split PVC fitting on the pressure side inside the well manhole (correct term??). Pump was running ALOT... 3-4x a night without a water demand, for 45-60 min when going for a big recovery (watering the lawn for 10 min...).

    Replaced the fitting... Had to cut the fitting out (IE: plastic shavings..) and saw some rust in the plastic pipe....)

    After priming, still no water or increase in air in pump... Seems nothing is moving...

    --I back filled the system with my neighbors water, still no water movement - needle on liquid-filled gauge bouncing...

    --I pressure tested the pump (myers HCM50) and both lines to 50psi and it held for 4-5min...)

    --Removed pump and capped suction (loosely) and put 35lbs to the pressure side... Water came out the suction pipe...

    Ok, seems like its a pump problem...

    -- Swapped pump with a new HD unit (waiting on delivery of a good pump...)

    Same issue.

    A bit of an urgent issue... I have only today to gather parts to repair for long weekend....
     
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    I have read other posts on jet pumps. You have a 2-pipe deep well jet pump system with probably a jet assembly down the hole. That jet assembly includes a jet nozzle/venturi a screen and a check valve to keep water from going back down into the well bore. There may be times where the venturi is in a separate assembly from the checkvalve and screen. In that case, the checkvalve and screen are in a piece called a foot valve. Do some searching on these terms to find better information.

    https://terrylove.com/forums/index....et-pump-low-water-pressure.47115/#post-344943 is an example of a post that suggested a poor pumping performance could be fixed by cleaning the nozzle. However your symptom of the pump running overnight without use would suggest that the check valve in the jet assembly.

    I could not suggest what you would need to buy. It seems that cleaning the existing part might fix things at least partially. I would think that you would need to match the the nozzle system to the pump and water depth somehow. I don't know how to do that. It is probably safest if you get a professional well person to do the fixes down the hole.

    If your well casing is big enough, converting to a submersible pump system would have advantages. Those would include never having to prime and quiet operation.
     
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  4. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    EDIT: the reason I pressurized the 1" pressure pipe was mainly to see if there was a restriction in the line/ejector, etc from the potential rust/plastic shavings from the fitting repair...

    Thx
     
  5. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Yes, 2 pipe, pressure/return(suction)

    Should be an ejector/Venturi in the bottom... I have been told the foot cable had been replaced...


    There was a split fitting on the pressure side... The cover over the well access was broken and probably froze this winter... We had a night of -20 this winter. (Central MASS). It was spraying water out like leaving a faucet on low...
     
  6. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    * foot valve... Blasted autocorrect ;)


    It is a 6" pipe, so would fit...... I had considered... But Not strongly yet....
     
  7. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    A 6 inch casing would make it relatively easy to fit a 4 inch submersible pump.

    The right way to do things is to remove the well pit, and instead have a pitless adapter installed below the frost line. The casing gets extended about a foot above ground to prevent surface water from contaminating the well. They do have pitless adapters for deep well jet systems, but that would be a good time to switch to submersible.
     
  8. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    We may need to drill for a new well when the house is moved... I'd prefer to fix this setup for now till other plans are finalized...

    I'm just stumped. Lines seem to test good, and pump is new... Maybe there is a slight restriction in the ejector that's taxing the pump.

    New pump is 3/4 horse... Old was 1/2... Is it safe to assume the ejector/nozzle would be adequate??.
     
  9. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    UPDATE: I'm only seeing ~10-15 psi from this (pos??) everbuilt 3/4hp) pump... Old pump was 25psi under the same circumstances...

    AND.... Both pressure and return lines were full... I Just disconnected them from the fittings @ the well head....

    Ready to go down to inspect the ejector...:O
     
  10. craigpump

    craigpump In the Trades

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Occupation:
    Self employed water system tech
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Sounds like a plugged jet, BUT, you also said it held pressure for a few minutes. It should hold pressure indefinitely, so you may have a leak at fitting someplace or the footvalve might be leaking.

    Personally, I'd throw that jet pump away and convert the system to a quality submersible with a casing extension and pitless adapter, new offset piping, etc. Depending on your location, that's about a $3000.00-$3500.00 job.
     
  11. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Hi Craig,

    It held steady on the gauge for 5 min or so.... I then let the air out and moved on... Normally, I'd air test longer, but I was just looking for confirmation of pipe integrity before faulting the pipes.

    Anyway more news....

    UPDATE:

    I just pulled all the vertical piping up... ~176ft... With ~30ft being from the foot to the ejector housing. The water line is only 37 ft down from the top of well. So isn't a 'too low' pickup... Yet, it looks like someone had the system drilled & piped for a bigger pump... As a 1/2hp wouldn't pull 233 ft (4ft below grade)

    That's a lot of pipe-filled-water to pull out by hand...

    The existing (old ) pump is a Myers HJM-50.

    More soon....
     
  12. Sawgarage

    Sawgarage New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    UPDATE: WE HAVE RUNNING WATER!! :)

    Judging by the sound, feel & weight, both pipes were full of water... Strung them out in the yard uphill and took the pipe off the ejector leading to the foot valve...drained into a bucket. As it drained back there was a bunch of large rust particles....

    WOW....talk about RUSTY water!!

    --Cleaned and flushed the ejector and reinstalled
    -- flushed foot valve and piping
    --Pre-primed the suction which in turn primed the supply... ----Buttoned everything up outside (pipes, well seal, etc)
    --primed pump
    --Turned on.

    -- had water pressure(+30psi) in 2-3 seconds!!
    --Opened valve to house
    --backed off jet pressure screw.

    --filled system, now it's time to go out and water the lawn with the irony water to clear it up...

    We've had the well water tested a couple yrs ago... So I wasn't surprised... All was good with the exception of a little iron...had an idea @ the time as it has stained the toilet tank...

    I'll be gathering stuff as $$ allows to swap to a sub. Pump...

    THANKS GUYS!!! Hopefully someone learns from my lesson!!






    What does a new 4" submersible pump run... As in something good Gould, grundfus(sp?) etc). For 230 ft lift... The current setup is 120v...
     
  13. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Glad you were successful.

    For a submersible, they are a lot more efficient than jet pumps.

    Your water line is 37 ft below grade. If the well keeps up, you want your new pump to be efficient when the water is at that level. Yet you would like the pump to be able to produce water at a level that you think the well might drop to during a drought. Have wells near you run dry at times that you know of?

    You say 230 ft. Your well piping in the well was 170 ft. Does that mean that the house is 50 ft above the ground level at the well?

    Budget for the pump from a well person: maybe $800 or $900 I am thinking (maybe low guess). $500 or $600 for the pump DIY price ordered. Some pumps are easier to order. You are looking for a top quality pump. Another thing to consider is do you want a "2-wire" or "3-wire" pump? (3-wire has 3 wires plus a green ground wire). I like 2-wire. They don't have quite as much torque to start, and overcoming sand grains to start is not a big deal for my well. I figure that the slower start is less impact on the parts. 3-wire on the other hand has more starting torque and it is usually more power efficient. The 3-wire pumps need a controller box. The box will have a start capacitor and maybe a run capacitor. The start capacitor is only engaged by a relay for a few seconds during starting. It is an AC electrolytic capacitor, and it has a limited life. An electrolytic is usually used for DC, but these AC versions have 2 capacitors in series in their cans. They will go bad based on a combination of starts and time. Figure to change that every 8 or so years. Some boxes also have a run capacitor. These are smaller value, and they use a longer-lived construction. Why do the start caps use a more limited life construction? The electrolytics are smaller and cheaper for a given capacity. The run capacitor is always engaged and it needs the longer lived construction. The power that a pump takes for providing water to a house is pretty small. If I were doing irrigation, I would go 3-wire. The 2-wire submersible is still going to be much more power efficient than a jet pump.

    Anyway, I have put some study in. I am an amateur. I am thinking about what to replace my submersible pump date code September 2001 and first installed 2002. I had it re-installed when I got rid of my pit, got the casing extended above ground, and had the pitless adapter installed in 2014. It is a 3/4 HP pump, and I am pretty sure that I will go to a 1/2 HP pump when that pump fails some day. It should be efficient at my 81 ft static level but be able to pump something in the unlikely chance that the water level drops to the 140 ft pump placement level. If you have a pump designed for much deeper water than you have, it is not good for the pump. My choices are more limited than yours because I have 4-inch steel casing and most "4-inch" pumps are 3.9 inches OD. I will use a trimline/streamline pump that is 3.75 OD because there are imperfections on the casing. While there are 3-inch pumps available, I am concerned that they put too much electronic circuitry down the hole. Plus they can spin up to more than 10,000 RPM vs the typical ~3500 RPM speed of a dumber motor. A lot of people use them successfully. Lifetime data seems to be anecdotal. Even your dumb motors may not be as good as they were pre-2005.

    Searching around I found a view on the Franklin Electric /Gould etc skirmish. http://justicewater.com/articles/baad-pumps Note that some virus checkers seem to indicate a virus. I suspect it is a false positive. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ble-water-well-pumps.54111/page-2#post-395367 Others view the events differently. I don't know.

    Right now my leading candidate the Goulds Streamline 7G05 (11 stage) 0.5 hp motor=M05422, 7G05422C STREAMLINED . It does use the Centripro motor. I think I would prefer a Franklin motor. But that pump's curves seem to match my conditions very well. I might go with a different choice including what the well person says.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
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