No water from well. Need To Move Fast

[Djbrady105]

Hi,
I joined this forum because while I was at work today, my wife informed me that water pressure was terrible in the entire house. When I got home, I did troubleshooting. I immediately see that the pump double breaker is tripped. I reset it, hear a growling noise for about half a second, and the breaker trips again. In a few I try again. a millisecond of noise then nothing. I open the main cutoff switch that is after the breaker, and 246 volt registers coming in. Nothing out to pressure switch. I test the 2 large cylinder fuses, and the one on the hot leg is blown. I'm figuring this indicates a seized pump. So no water at all for the house/family. I'd like to save money and possibly do this myself. I'm not a plumbing pro, but very handy, determined, and teachable. I did teach myself to do all the inside plumbing repairs, and soldering copper pipes.

I'm overwhelmed with new terminology, and that is making it difficult to know what to buy. Please help me to know what pump to get. If I do this myself, I can afford to invest in a better pump. I don't want to go through this again in the near future. I know it involves a bunch of factors. I've included a picture of the info from the Franklin control box, which shows a 3 wire pump. I called the town building dept, and they sent me the only thing they have on file, which is the well permit request from 1972. I'm including a screenshot of the minimal info. Thank you all very much.

 

[Reach4]

Guessing in part:

275 ft well depth
155 ft casing
20 ft static level (this guess is not based on the stuff written after the 20)
15 gpm well production.​

What is the casing size and material?
Show us a photo of the top of the well.

Both power legs are hots.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

That pump is 21 years old. They don't make 1/3HP motors any more. I would use a 1/2HP, 10 GPM pump like a Goulds 10GS05. It is not the quality of the pump that makes it last as much as preventing as many on/off cycles as possible. Pumps are made to run 24/7. I have one that hasn't shut off for a minute in 18 years. It is the repetitive cycling on and off that gets them, some sooner, some later.

 

[Djbrady105]

Guessing in part:

275 ft well depth
155 ft casing
20 ft static level (this guess is not based on the stuff written after the 20)
15 gpm well production.​

What is the casing size and material?
Show us a photo of the top of the well.

Both power legs are hots.

Hi Reach4, Thanks for the reply. The casing is 6" diameter and is metal, which I'm guessing is steel. Thanks also for the correction. I was going on my limited AC electrical knowledge that the black leg is the hot.

 

[Reach4]

You have a pitless adapter and a 3-wire pump. I would replace the start capacitor in the box. That is a non-polarized electrolytic, and has a limited life.

You could also just replace the whole control box. https://www.zoro.com/franklin-electric-control-box-13hp-230v-1phase-2801034915/i/G3505241/

 

[Djbrady105]

You have a pitless adapter and a 3-wire pump. I would replace the start capacitor in the box. That is a non-polarized electrolytic, and has a limited life.

You could also just replace the whole control box. https://www.zoro.com/franklin-electric-control-box-13hp-230v-1phase-2801034915/i/G3505241/

I'm aware of that from all my research yesterday. But, with the loud growl for a half second before tripping the breaker again, then blowing the fuse in the main cutoff switch, do you think that would be a bad control box, or a jammed/seized pump?

 

[Djbrady105]

That pump is 21 years old. They don't make 1/3HP motors any more. I would use a 1/2HP, 10 GPM pump like a Goulds 10GS05. It is not the quality of the pump that makes it last as much as preventing as many on/off cycles as possible. Pumps are made to run 24/7. I have one that hasn't shut off for a minute in 18 years. It is the repetitive cycling on and off that gets them, some sooner, some later.

Hi Cary,

I've been considering your product for a while. We had a conversation a couple of years ago, and you said I likely had a Schrader valve in my system that would need to be removed. I'm a technician for many years, and I know that if you disturb a system that's been left alone for years, and is functioning, that invites trouble, so I didn't want to mess with pulling up the outside plumbing to see if that valve is there. Also, I truly wish I could get a clear sense of if the industry supports or condemns your invention/product? There's not a lot of commentary, and what I find seems more on a personal level, than a professional, we have a lot of experience installing these level. Please put that aside for a second, because I'm focused on what pump to get right now. Why do you recommend the Gould over other popular brands, or the highly rated Franklin Electric models?

 

[Reach4]

I'm aware of that from all my research yesterday. But, with the loud growl for a half second before tripping the breaker again, then blowing the fuse in the main cutoff switch, do you think that would be a bad control box, or a jammed/seized pump?

Good point. A bad start winding should not blow a fuse in half a second. I think that would be multiple seconds.

Time to try ohmmeter readings to ground, I think. Then wire-to-wire resistances if you can measure low ohms.

Your new pump could be a 2-wire pump unless you plan to power the pump with a lower power generator at times. Some would re-purpose the freed up wire to become a ground. I am not sure I would. I am not a pro.

 

[Valveman]

Hi Cary,

I've been considering your product for a while. We had a conversation a couple of years ago, and you said I likely had a Schrader valve in my system that would need to be removed. I'm a technician for many years, and I know that if you disturb a system that's been left alone for years, and is functioning, that invites trouble, so I didn't want to mess with pulling up the outside plumbing to see if that valve is there. Also, I truly wish I could get a clear sense of if the industry supports or condemns your invention/product? There's not a lot of commentary, and what I find seems more on a personal level, than a professional, we have a lot of experience installing these level. Please put that aside for a second, because I'm focused on what pump to get right now. Why do you recommend the Gould over other popular brands, or the highly rated Franklin Electric models?

Yeah if you have an old style galv tank with a bleeder system a CSV can't help you solve the cycling problem. The industry is not going to support, and actually tries to vilify our product "BECAUSE it makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks". That is a direct quote from several pump/motor manufacturers. There is nothing technically or professionally wrong with our CSV, which is why they have to get personal to keep you from trying one. They don't want you to use something that would make your pump last 3-5 times longer than normal, so they get personal.

Franklin makes a good motor, but they have changed the old Jacuzzi pump design up until it is not. Goulds is a good pump that is easy to find a good price on the Internet. Pentair and Franklin are my least favorites.

 

[Djbrady105]

Yeah if you have an old style galv tank with a bleeder system a CSV can't help you solve the cycling problem. The industry is not going to support, and actually tries to vilify our product "BECAUSE it makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks". That is a direct quote from several pump/motor manufacturers. There is nothing technically or professionally wrong with our CSV, which is why they have to get personal to keep you from trying one. They don't want you to use something that would make your pump last 3-5 times longer than normal, so they get personal.

Franklin makes a good motor, but they have changed the old Jacuzzi pump design up until it is not. Goulds is a good pump that is easy to find a good price on the Internet. Pentair and Franklin are my least favorites.

I now understand that the pump and motor are separate components. Do submersible pumps have a universal mounting design for attachment to motors? So, since It seems like my current motor wants to turn but can't, and keeps tripping the breaker, should I consider just getting the pump and attaching it, even though the motor is at least 20 years old? Would the best combo be a Franklin motor with the Goulds pump, or is it better to get both from the same manufacturer?

I also need to replace the tank, which is why I'm considering your CSV. What does a Schrader valve look like in a well water system? Would it be inline on the pipe that comes up from the pump, or by the tank? I know this is a bunch of questions, and I really appreciate your help.

p.s. I just put a tip in the jar

 

[LLigetfa]

I would consider a Grundfos if you plan to use a CSV as they don't float the stages so there is less friction at the higher pressure.

 

[Djbrady105]

I would consider a Grundfos if you plan to use a CSV as they don't float the stages so there is less friction at the higher pressure.

Thanks so much for the recommendation. I researched this brand and saw mostly good things from consumers, and you guys on this board. Even their employees are consistent that it's an excellent product(Glassdoor.com, not product reviews). I just purchased the
10SQ05-160 96160140 1/2 HP 240V SQ Now I have to order the CSV. I want to use that with a 20 gal storage tank. Any recommendations?

 

[Valveman]

The SQ pump will be fine. But it is not a universal connection and replacing the motor with a different brand is not possible. All 4" pumps and motors are Nema Standard and one brand will fit another. You don't really need a 2o gallon tank as a 4.5 or 10 gallon would do fine. But you can order the PK1A less tank and use any size tank you want. Thanks!

 

[Djbrady105]

The SQ pump will be fine. But it is not a universal connection and replacing the motor with a different brand is not possible. All 4" pumps and motors are Nema Standard and one brand will fit another. You don't really need a 2o gallon tank as a 4.5 or 10 gallon would do fine. But you can order the PK1A less tank and use any size tank you want. Thanks!

Hi Cary,

I'm going on what I saw on your site, that the PK1A with a 20 gal tank would have the least start/stop cycles. I'm very happy to report that I got the pump out of the well myself. 5 things I need help on are: The O ring on the pitless shoe is flat with the face of the shoe. I tried digging it out, but it seems like I'll have to destroy it to do that. Is this designed to be replaced? I need a barbed adapter to go between the 1-1/4" NPT outlet of the pump to the 1" ID poly pipe. I'm having a heck of a time finding a 316 stainless online. Do you know where I may find this? Should I replace the wiring going to the pump, since it's been down there in the water for a couple of decades? Is a torque arrestor a good idea? Lastly, see the pic. This is on the well inlet pipe before the pressure tank. It has small copper tubing running to the pressure switch. I know there's no check valve in it, because I verified all the water in the tank ran back into the well after I pulled the pump out. Can I keep this in the system when using a CSV? It would be nice to save the cost of the pressure switch and gauge, since they are working fine. Thanks as always.

 

[Valveman]

Hi Cary,

I'm going on what I saw on your site, that the PK1A with a 20 gal tank would have the least start/stop cycles. I'm very happy to report that I got the pump out of the well myself. 5 things I need help on are: The O ring on the pitless shoe is flat with the face of the shoe. I tried digging it out, but it seems like I'll have to destroy it to do that. Is this designed to be replaced? I need a barbed adapter to go between the 1-1/4" NPT outlet of the pump to the 1" ID poly pipe. I'm having a heck of a time finding a 316 stainless online. Do you know where I may find this? Should I replace the wiring going to the pump, since it's been down there in the water for a couple of decades? Is a torque arrestor a good idea? Lastly, see the pic. This is on the well inlet pipe before the pressure tank. It has small copper tubing running to the pressure switch. I know there's no check valve in it, because I verified all the water in the tank ran back into the well after I pulled the pump out. Can I keep this in the system when using a CSV? It would be nice to save the cost of the pressure switch and gauge, since they are working fine. Thanks as always.

Yes the 20 gallon tank has less start/stop cycles, just not enough less to justify the larger tank. Yes the pitless o-ring can and should be replaced. You can find one in any o-ring kit. Just use one a little small and stretch it to get it in place, or it will be too large and get cut when sliding it in the pitless. The barb fitting doesn't have to be 316SS. It can be 304SS or brass, just not plastic. Just use a 1" bard fitting and a 1 1/4X1 threaded bushing. Can't see the wiring, but replacing is probably a good idea. If you use a double jacketed wire like a THHN/THWN underground burial cable it will have an extra jacket over all the wires. This make the wire tough enough that torque arrestors are not needed. Without double jacketed wire torque arrestors are not good enough to stop wire chaffing. And torque arrestors can cause the pump to get stuck in the well so don't use them. Just tape the wire to the pipe every 10-20 feet with electric tape.

Well ? That thing the copper tube is connected to is the extra check valve you don't need. I would remove it, and place the pressure switch tube closer to the tank. That pressure switch probably has a million cycles on it and needs to be replaced as well. You should be able to get the PK1A kit for less than just the CSV1A with the 20 gallon tank, then you would have a new pressure switch and everything.

 

[Djbrady105]

Yes the 20 gallon tank has less start/stop cycles, just not enough less to justify the larger tank. Yes the pitless o-ring can and should be replaced. You can find one in any o-ring kit. Just use one a little small and stretch it to get it in place, or it will be too large and get cut when sliding it in the pitless. The barb fitting doesn't have to be 316SS. It can be 304SS or brass, just not plastic. Just use a 1" bard fitting and a 1 1/4X1 threaded bushing. Can't see the wiring, but replacing is probably a good idea. If you use a double jacketed wire like a THHN/THWN underground burial cable it will have an extra jacket over all the wires. This make the wire tough enough that torque arrestors are not needed. Without double jacketed wire torque arrestors are not good enough to stop wire chaffing. And torque arrestors can cause the pump to get stuck in the well so don't use them. Just tape the wire to the pipe every 10-20 feet with electric tape.

Well ? That thing the copper tube is connected to is the extra check valve you don't need. I would remove it, and place the pressure switch tube closer to the tank. That pressure switch probably has a million cycles on it and needs to be replaced as well. You should be able to get the PK1A kit for less than just the CSV1A with the 20 gallon tank, then you would have a new pressure switch and everything.

Ok, I just ordered the 10 gallon kit. We've been without water for 5 days already, so please get that to me as quickly as possible before my family mutinies on me. Concerning the insert, I read some feedback that stainless to stainless threaded junctions can be problematic. What's the best way to seal this joint so there's no leaks? Thanks.

David

 

[Valveman]

Screwing Stainless to Stainless is the problem. Stainless to anything else isn't as bad. But I use Teflon tape with pipe dope over that, which the dope is made for Stainless threads and has some anti-seize in it. Stainless to Stainless will gall and not come back apart without good anti-seize.

 

[Reach4]

From what I have read, the speed of turning has a lot to do with the galling. For stainless to stainless, turn as slow as practical. I think that would be helped by using big wrenches.

However if you get a brass bushing, you don't have stainless to stainless.

 

[Djbrady105]

Screwing Stainless to Stainless is the problem. Stainless to anything else isn't as bad. But I use Teflon tape with pipe dope over that, which the dope is made for Stainless threads and has some anti-seize in it. Stainless to Stainless will gall and not come back apart without good anti-seize.

I ordered a stick of Loctite 561 today to deal with that. I called and spoke with one of their engineers, because I couldn't figure out what to choose out of their enormous amount of products. I just looked at pictures of the 10 gal pressure tank I'm getting with the kit. Can this hang off the bottom of the CSV with the brackets that come with the kit?

 

[Valveman]

Yes the 10 gallon tank can either go straight down or straight up off the CSV1A. A 10 gallon tank only hold 2 gallons of water, so it isn't heavy.