No Tip

[Cass]

Helmets

The debate still rages over who has the right to decide who wears one.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Save the children is a given. Melodramatics don't count in my request for knowledge.


You didn't answer my question.


I assume you keep a box of various clips for all makes and models of stoves so that when you service the stove, upon discovery you notice there is no tip clip. Is that what you are implying? The same logic should apply whether you are replacing a gas line on an existing stove with a no-tip clip or a brand new one; both can cause harm to little wee ones. That's why I want to know. (Should plumbers be demanding tip clips be installed on all EXISTING stoves since we are the one moving that device around to repair)

I'd like to see the code reference to your statement where it implies the licensed plumber is liable for setup/install of the stove when called out for a simple gas line hookup.

It's early in the morning so take your time and enjoy your coffee.

(UL) "858 Household Electric Range Safety Standard (Section 33) and the ANSI Z21.1 Household Gas Range Safety Standard (Section 1.6). These standards require that ranges manufactured after 1991 not tip with 250 pounds or less on the door or drawer for five minutes. To meet this standard, manufacturers provide brackets with each range that must be used for securing the range to a wall, floor or cabinet structure"
Thats the code...aside from UL it includes ANSI, which IS our responsibility...as stated above, the MFG is required to provide the bracket.
I abhor looking through the code book, but thats what we're paid for.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Leejosepho]

"... manufacturers provide brackets with each range that must be used for securing the range to a wall, floor or cabinet structure."

That's the code ... which IS our responsibility...

I abhor looking through the code book, but thats what we're paid for.

I doubt Rugged is going to be convinced he is thus absolutely required by law to never leave a house after working with a late-model stove that was not already connected to the floor or wall when he first arrived, and I am curious to know who pays you to look through the code book.

 

[Cookie]

Ah, yes sarcasm.
I don't think I want to much live in a world that doesn't try to better things for the whole population. I don't see it as making people mindless. Some people will be mindless no matter what and then there are those who stand out because they are responsible not only for theirselves but also for others.

I was involved in a motocycle accident years ago. He was riding a Harley. He had no insurance, was not wearing a helmet, and was on welfare. He was drunk, he ran a ran light, he was speeding and ran his bike up over my windshield breaking it and hitting me inside. He flew back off and then, got under my wheels and I drug him quite a few feet before I hit a pole. He lost his leg and nearly, his life. His head, the back of his head was pretty bad. Back then you didn't have to wear a helmet.

I wonder to this day what that man would say about helmet laws of today.

Sure he was stupid for drinking. Sure he was stupid for running a red light, and sure he was stupid for speeding. Was he stupid for not wearing a helmet?

I think we need to do our 2 cents worth to make things better for future generations. We need to care more and not have the attitude of sink or swim.

I commend you Grumpy for not sleeping at night unless you do your best to make things as safe as possible especially when kids are involved. I gave this man my liablity back then, not because I had to, but because even though he was stupid and mindless, I felt a responsiblity to do the best I could to help him. Maybe he will pass it on.

 

[Molo]

I have two children, 3 1/2 and 2. I feel as if I've aged 5 years to each 1 of theirs. Constantly concerned about alot. FOR EXAMPLE; 2 or 3 of my son's "Thomas the Train" toys we're recently recalled because the Chinese manufacturer was using lead paint, and the greedy US corporation ordering them from China didn't take time or care to set up adequate quality control. http://recalls.rc2.com/recalls_Wood_0607.htmland
Same with the reflective jewelry people buy every day for their kids out to of the quater machines or dollar stores, it's being produced in China with lead paint. Say what you want about the dangers of lead. If someone can disprove it's dangers, please let me know..
Oh yeah, what about the ingredients in our food, MSG for example is reported to cause problem solving difficulties in adults who consumed alot of it as children. Also, China rears it's ugly head again... food manufacturers are required to show ingredients, but they don't have to show where they are all from! Many preservatives etc. are coming out of China, and are unsafe products, that are not screened by the big corporations buying them. Check out you're apple juice. Another thing I watch out for.
Then I have to be worried about the non-edible things that they THINK are edible, lol.
These are only the concerns regarding consumption.
Haven't even gotten to the non-edible in home hazards such as tipping ovens, dishwashers, stairs, electricity, woodstove, chairs, tvs/vcrs that can fall, dresser drawers, toilets, washers/dryers, irons, in-laws, lol
Still haven't left the house yet
Then.. We step outside the front door, I won't get into it, but you get my point... there are alot of concerns.
I am learning that a balanced approach is best, We do what we can to make things safe, we realize that it is out of our means to avoid every unknown problem, and at that point we are forced to realize our limitations, and we rely on god, faith, or whatever you might call it, to get us through our day. And at the end of the day, I think of the great folks who help to make life safer, and I ask for God's blessing.

by the way, the Chinese are doing some dirty business, and the big corporations that are turning their heads are just as dirty. One of my late Grandmother's cancer prescriptions was foiund to have the wrong product in it (plaster), that the Chinese were putting into it.

Molo

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

I doubt Rugged is going to be convinced he is thus absolutely required by law to never leave a house after working with a late-model stove that was not already connected to the floor or wall when he first arrived, and I am curious to know who pays you to look through the code book.

When someone calls a plumber, they expect a plumber...they pay for just that.
We could nitpick at why we have laws requiring things we feel are intrusive or invasive...I mean we could go on about how cars are required to have windshields and rear view mirrors, doors too...or why we're s'posed to stop at red lights.
We could argue about why MFG's are required to fire proof mattresses when anyone with half a brain has the sense to keep it away from flame...we could debate about lot's of meaningful things.
It's good to question authority, healthy even, but there comes a point when maybe it's best to save energy for more meaningful debates.

 

[Cookie]

Molo,
I read what you wrote and had to write something back about mine. I was on top of my kids all the time. Never left them alone for a minute, I never blinked for 10 years straight, and my head rotates 180degrees even with all of that my children found the time to:

1. share a bottle of vitamins THANK God without Iron in it.
2. my youngest who was on the bottom of the cart---got off and helped himself to something in a cardboard display in the snack lane. It was a toilet bowl thing that clips inside the toilet. He bit into it. I called Poison Control and he would be fine.
What wasn't fine, was why they had that display so reachable and yet, with the snacks. I talked to the manager and they corrected it.
3. Young son drank a bottle of bubble solution for making bubbles with.
4. Shopping at Kmart with the boys. They were in the cart. Until, I looked and the oldest was gone. I ran around and around with the youngest and then, heard a little voice saying, "mommy mommy " the voice was coming from a round rack of clothes, I looked under it and didn't see him, but could hear him, so, I spun it, and there he was HANGING on the bar afraid to let go. I can only guess while in the cart he was touching the rack when I moved the cart away.

There are dangers for parents as well.
My husband for years had a crease on his head from the oldest son, while he was laying on the floor watching tv he came walking over (13 months) and slugged daddy with a bear with a music box in it. He came into into the kitchen bleeding where I was at and I said, " what happened to you?" He said, " the baby hit me." LOL.

Remember Molo, it goes fast so enjoy every single minute. It is a tough job but rewarding. Any help you can get with preventive safety measures do count. I am an advocate on righting wrongs. I take the time to tell stores if something is not right for kids.

One more thing, parents can be really stupid. While I had my sons at a park I saw this bar type thing and thought, geez I bet he would love to swing from it. So, I put my oldests little hands on it, and then pushed him--right into the dirt. My husband asked, " did you really think he was going to swing like a pendulum?" duh...yeah. You will make mistakes and got to laugh at them.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I doubt Rugged is going to be convinced he is thus absolutely required by law to never leave a house after working with a late-model stove that was not already connected to the floor or wall when he first arrived,

Correct.


I want to know the dividing line of where my responsibility starts and ends when I go to service a gas line to a stove.

I think there are other plumbers wanting this answer which is not found in a code reference.

I think.......maybe 1 stove I've encountered in all my years as a plumber has a tip clip been installed. They work.

I am asking for the legal advice of this matter, that's it.

 

[Pewterpower]

It really is a good question.
I understand the concept, I under staand the law, I understand the benefit.
But as a plumber, shouldn't your responsibilty end with just pointing it out to the homeowner?
On the flip side, if I was a plumber, I think I would keep a few of those things in my truck and charge a few $$ more to install it. Easy money.

 

[Frenchie]

(Edit: sorry, folks, didn't see the second page. This post was in response to:

My mention of metal-detecting interlocks was sarcastic rhetoric intended to sober people to the idea of personal responsibility rather than to mindlessly believe the gub'ment will ultimately protect and provide for everyone.

One of my brothers taught me how to ride a motorcycle, and he told me the same staying-alive policy his own mentor had first told him:

"If you ever get hurt ... it is your own fault, and there are no exceptions."

I rode for 40 years and yet live, thereby proving that old man right ... and my worst injury ever happened while I was sitting completely still in the doorway of a barn and trying to put on that insufferable helmet.

...and in this case, the responsible thing is to attach the no-tip.


It comes packaged with the stove - why wouldn't you put it in? But some guys want to be hacks, so there has to be a law...

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Correct.


I want to know the dividing line of where my responsibility starts and ends when I go to service a gas line to a stove.

I think there are other plumbers wanting this answer which is not found in a code reference.

I think.......maybe 1 stove I've encountered in all my years as a plumber has a tip clip been installed. They work.

I am asking for the legal advice of this matter, that's it.

NOT a lawyer here...though I'm sure the responsibility lies on our shoulders only on NEW installs...the clause "exisitng plumbing" likely falls onto existing stoves.
This falls into the same category as securing a pedastil basin...you's think blocking a wall for support would be the carpenters responsibility, but ensuring the sink is secure lies on us, you could also use toggles, but is that assuring when you think of a kid hanging on it?

 

[Pewterpower]

Yes, I agree with you 100%.
I think first line of responsibility should be with the install/delivery guys.
If it was brought home by the homeowner, and a plumber (gas) or electrician (pigtail) called to do the install, then I would say it's the plumber's/electrician's responsibiliy.
But what if it was a DIY remodel? Or a used stove from a yard sale? Or the plumber slides the stove away from the wall and there is no tip clip? Does the plumber have to supply it now????

 

[Cookie]

I think the least a plumber could do would be to mention it to the homeowner. If it is code, then he should just do it. I would pay extra to have it put in. But, why should a homeowner pay extra if it is code? Either way I would want to know about my option and let me, the homeowner, at least decide. It doesn't hurt to have it installed. Better safe than sorry, who knows. My Irish Twins, are grown today, the oldest a systems engineer and the youngest with a degree in Film and Education. So, they sure did survive the mishaps of growing up without all the jazzy protection things, but, it is nice to know when something new comes about. I read some comments too about people not watching their kids I actually have a background in childcare/development and I will be the first to tell you like that commercial---life comes at you fast. Kids are fast.

Frenchie, I agree if it comes with the stove why would someone not put it on? I think that might leave someone open to legal problems if it would tip over. Like the plumber or the installer. Only makes sense. How does it work in other things in plumbing? If some plumber doesn't do something up to code what are the ramifications if something happens? Why would this be any different. Just wondering. Maybe get things in writing.

One thing about kids is simply don't blink.

 

[Cookie]

Pewterpower,

Just curious, in regards to your last question, if the plumber pulls it away and there is no clip ... shouldn't he bring it up to code, especially as something as simple as a clip? To protect himself from any further problems since he worked on it, and the homeowner. What if he worked on something else and something was amiss, how would that be any different? Maybe, plumbers should just throw a couple of them in the truck incase. Plus, I will tell you too, something like that if a plumber told me I would be much more inclined to keep him as my plumber.

*just my 2 cents worth from a homeowner.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Suffice to say YES.
It might not be, it could lie under the clause for "existing", but who cares?
I do alotta work, I walk away knowing I did what I learned to do..the right way.
Using toggle bolts is technically the "right" way...especially when the GC left you no blocking and it's already been a ten hour day.
As far as whats legal...this is a tough one, but lets compare it to servicing a boiler for a dripping relief valve and noticing a corroded hole in the smoke pipe.
Technically it isn't your problem, but do you want to watch the news a week later to see they never woke up?
Legally I think it's our responsibility to inform the homeowner, what they decide lies on them.

 

[ChuckNJ]

Besides the issue of working on a "unsafely installed stove", the issue also comes down to liability.

If you go into a home and work on an unsafe appliance....this stove.... the problem is what a jury would think about YOU....

..... as the lawsuit unfolded against you, the original installer, the manufacturer, the township, the delivery guy, the guy who put diesel in the delivery truck, the guy who delivered the diesel to the fueling station and the fuel company which supplied the diesel which filled the truck, which drove the appliance to the homeowners house 10 years prior. Sorry....rant ended should something happen to a littleone,due to the negligence of the parent who let the kid be there, when they were pulling the 25lb turkey out of the oven on the door........there....finally ended

YOU would be the LAST PERSON WHO WORKED ON IT.... YOU .......TECHNICALLY BEING CALLED A PROFESSIONAL IN YOUR FIELD by the prosecution.... would bear significant responsibility due to your NEGLIGENCE in informing / providing / installing the anti-tip device which would have saved the life / injury of the littleone.

In situations as such, I write on my invoices.....

"notified homeowner that such device is missing from such appliance which may be of potential hazard......homeowner refused installation by *contractor*....

Please sign & date here. x...............


I'm not a lawyer, but my lawyer says that documentation will relieve SOME of the liability of the person being sued in one of theses type cases.....NOT ALL liability, just some. I've had discussions like this with my insurance agent and unfortunately, once you touch a product / part / appliance in someones home, you bear some responsibility of that product down the line should something occur.

In the eyes of the jury.....not necessarily the law....WE, as a professional representative of our industry, have a moral obligation to inform others, not in the same profession, of potential dangers of something we know exists in their home. Difficult to prove that you knew about it, but not impossible.


I'm with GRUMPY..... would have done everything possible .....including installing for free if necessary..... just to know that the work I provided would not be, in some or another way, related to the death or injury of a child in the home. I'd sleep better at night.

 

[Cookie]

I see something here that might benefit the plumbers and the homeowners. It wouldn't be a bad idea to advertise you do these tip clips. I know that I did not know about it. How it ever escaped me, I will never understand, lol. You got to know me to understand how careful I am in things. You might want to put that on your business cards, or in your advertising? Look at it this way, I betcha most homeowners will just call out of wondering what it is. Might be a way of drumming up business when slow and could lead to other needful things.

 

[Leejosepho]

I think the least a plumber could do would be to mention it to the homeowner.

Without a doubt.

If it is code, then he should just do it.

If he is doing a new install, the extra work would either be expected already or easily explained if questioned.

I would pay extra to have it put in.

I would not.

But, why should a homeowner pay extra if it is code?

Because the gub'ment does not pay the plumber.

Either way I would want to know about my option and let me, the homeowner, at least decide.

There you go! One can either decide for oneself or simply "go with the flow".

... if the plumber pulls it away and there is no clip ... shouldn't he bring it up to code ...?

The solution here might be for the gub'ment to require clip interlocks so no stove will operate without one. Then neither the plumber nor the homeowner would have to even consider the question of a clip, everybody would be safe, the homeowner would happily pay for the extra work in order to be able to cook dinner and the plumber's liability insurance would go down and his PR image would rise ...

 

[Leejosepho]

(UL) 858 Household Electric Range Safety Standard (Section 33) and the ANSI Z21.1 Household Gas Range Safety Standard (Section 1.6).
These standards require that ranges manufactured after 1991 not tip with 250 pounds or less on the door or drawer for five minutes ..."

I got to thinking about that wording late last night ...

250 pounds "or less"?

Maybe the thought there is that some oven doors or drawers will not support 250 pounds without bending to the floor or breaking altogether in the first place.

Also, how would a test weight of 250 pounds relate to the matter of child safety? Are we also thinking about the possibility of Grandma standing on the door to reach the ceiling and change a lightbulb?!

 

[Leejosepho]

I was involved in a motocycle accident years ago ...

I wonder to this day what that man would say about helmet laws of today.

Probably the same as he had said before the time of that accident.

Was he stupid for not wearing a helmet?

No. Helmets provide a false sense of security in an overall sense for some people even though they actually can protect the head in some situations.

In my own case, however, a helmet once contributed to what would have been the loss of life when I could not hear a car running a red light and coming at me from the left while I was making a right turn on the green. Fortunately, my wife saw the car coming at us and hollered "Stop!" in our intercom system, and I responded immediately without having any idea what was going on. Just two seconds earlier, the roadway had been clear.

The most important issue in any matter related to safety is first education ... then add for yourself whatever you believe is best.