No Space available!!! Could I install hydronic baseboard vertically?

[curious1]

Basically the entire kitchen is covered by counters and cabinets. We only have 24 inches of wall to install the heating element.

Could we put the baseboard upward from floor to ceiling??

If not - What type of heating unit could we use?





(All help will get thumbs up)

 

[Mage182]

What kind of boiler do you have? Kickspace heaters could be an option. Although I only find them to be useful as a secondary heating source, not the primary source of heat for a room.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DonL]

I guess no one heats with the oven any more.

Bake more bread.

Good Luck. They have what you want on the internet. Google is your friend.

 

[curious1]

What kind of boiler do you have? Kickspace heaters could be an option. Although I only find them to be useful as a secondary heating source, not the primary source of heat for a room.

We have a regular hydronic boiler.

 

[Dana]

How much heat do you need, and at what water temp? (Or, how many feet of baseboard or "baseboard-equivalent" does it need to be?)

Fin tube baseboards are convectors, you won't get nearly the same amount of heat out of them if you stand them on end.

There are flat-panel radiators that might work, as well as antique (or new) cast iron, either of which is much nicer heat than crummy fin-tube baseboard convectors anyway. Kickboard heaters are a pretty lousy band-aid solution, but better than freezing to death (barely ). A 24" wide x 36" tall Biasi is the equivalent output of 11 feet of typical fin-tube baseboard, a 24" x 24" has the output of about 8'.

A 24" wide (x 5" deep x 20" tall) SunRad or Radiant cast iron rad is the equivalent of about 7' of baseboard:

 

[Smooky]

Check this Hudson Reed site out:
http://usa.hudsonreed.com/heating.html

 

[curious1]

How much heat do you need, and at what water temp? (Or, how many feet of baseboard or "baseboard-equivalent" does it need to be?)

Fin tube baseboards are convectors, you won't get nearly the same amount of heat out of them if you stand them on end.

There are flat-panel radiators that might work, as well as antique (or new) cast iron, either of which is much nicer heat than crummy fin-tube baseboard convectors anyway. Kickboard heaters are a pretty lousy band-aid solution, but better than freezing to death (barely ). A 24" wide x 36" tall Biasi is the equivalent output of 11 feet of typical fin-tube baseboard, a 24" x 24" has the output of about 8'.

A 24" wide (x 5" deep x 20" tall) SunRad or Radiant cast iron rad is the equivalent of about 7' of baseboard:

Thanks for your detailed options.
The problem is that Home Depot only sells the kickboard heaters. All the others are difficult to find a reliable and affordable seller.

What exactly is the problem with kickboard heaters (Aside that I will need to connect the electrical components for the fan which is not a problem)?

 

[curious1]

Check this Hudson Reed site out:
http://usa.hudsonreed.com/heating.html

Kind of expensive.........

 

[curious1]

How much heat do you need, and at what water temp? (Or, how many feet of baseboard or "baseboard-equivalent" does it need to be?)

Fin tube baseboards are convectors, you won't get nearly the same amount of heat out of them if you stand them on end.

There are flat-panel radiators that might work, as well as antique (or new) cast iron, either of which is much nicer heat than crummy fin-tube baseboard convectors anyway. Kickboard heaters are a pretty lousy band-aid solution, but better than freezing to death (barely ). A 24" wide x 36" tall Biasi is the equivalent output of 11 feet of typical fin-tube baseboard, a 24" x 24" has the output of about 8'.

A 24" wide (x 5" deep x 20" tall) SunRad or Radiant cast iron rad is the equivalent of about 7' of baseboard:

In regards to your question "what water temp" do I need - we set the boiler to heat the water to 160 in order to be far from the 200 boiler shutoff level. Not sure if that is right but I guess that deserves it's own discussion.

 

[Dana]

Why is Home Depot the only option? I usually shop on Craigslist when looking for radiation! ;-)

But there's always those auction site possibilities too.

Panel radiators can be ordered online from multiple vendors.

If you don't know how much heat the room needs, how do you know how much baseboard or other radiation it needs?

If that room is one of several on the zone, the radiation to room load balance has to be reasonably close to avoid over or under heating the room. Performing an IBR or Manual-J type heat load calculation on a room-by-room basis and comparing the ratio of room radiation to the room load for each room would give you at least a range. You don't want to freeze, but you also don't want to cook yourself out.

Most existing homes in NY could be heated with their existing radiation with 140F water, but not all boilers can operate there without short-cycling or running into condensation issues. That IS a separate discussion, but for now work on figuring out how much heat you need in that room relative to the others, and the proportion of "baseboard-equivalent" that would be to balance reasonably with other rooms on the zone. From that it's possible to spec a radiator that fits. If you're running 160F+ water there's no question but that there are radiators out there that will fill the bill that fit into a 24" width.

Kickboard heaters are noisy and create a wind-chill, and develop rattles, squeaks & buzz over time. It heats the room sure, but it also makes the people in the room less comfortable. If you can get there with radiators (not baseboard convectors) you maximize the comfort.

 

[DonL]

Kind of expensive.........

If you want cheap, You can get one of these and plug it into the toaster outlet.

I never tried it, But it may warm lunch up too. I see no reason it would not work. Unless you want toast too.

Good Luck.

 

[Dana]

At NY type electricity prices you don't want to heat the kitchen with a toaster!

 

[curious1]

At NY type electricity prices you don't want to heat the kitchen with a toaster!

You are very right about that. (Not sure if you live in NY)
Aside from the fire hazards -
It probably cost more money to heat 1 single room with electric heater - than to heat the entire house. (It is around 35 cents per KWH 1500 watts= 52 cents per hour. which could easily add up to 300 per month if left on all the time).

 

[curious1]

Why is Home Depot the only option? I usually shop on Craigslist when looking for radiation! ;-)

But there's always those auction site possibilities too.

Panel radiators can be ordered online from multiple vendors.

If you don't know how much heat the room needs, how do you know how much baseboard or other radiation it needs?

If that room is one of several on the zone, the radiation to room load balance has to be reasonably close to avoid over or under heating the room. Performing an IBR or Manual-J type heat load calculation on a room-by-room basis and comparing the ratio of room radiation to the room load for each room would give you at least a range. You don't want to freeze, but you also don't want to cook yourself out.

Most existing homes in NY could be heated with their existing radiation with 140F water, but not all boilers can operate there without short-cycling or running into condensation issues. That IS a separate discussion, but for now work on figuring out how much heat you need in that room relative to the others, and the proportion of "baseboard-equivalent" that would be to balance reasonably with other rooms on the zone. From that it's possible to spec a radiator that fits. If you're running 160F+ water there's no question but that there are radiators out there that will fill the bill that fit into a 24" width.

Kickboard heaters are noisy and create a wind-chill, and develop rattles, squeaks & buzz over time. It heats the room sure, but it also makes the people in the room less comfortable. If you can get there with radiators (not baseboard convectors) you maximize the comfort.

A) What I like about Home Depot is
1- It is a one stop shop without hours of looking around etc.
2- You know you are getting something that will work (most of the time).
3- The main advantage is for people like me that are not so professional - anything I don't use or does not fit - could easily be returned with no shipping or penalty etc.
Unfortunately they put tens of thousands of local hardware stores out of business but there is nothing to do about that.

B) I will check out the other sites and options. I contacted the ebay vendor asking if they will put the heavy radiators in the van. but I will probably anyways go with something like the ecomfort.com option (Based on your experties I am assuming that you know this seller has best prices).


C)Regarding balance - I try to estimate the amount of windows/exterior doors and room size. (around 4 ft for each window). Unfortunately I make many mistakes but most of the time the air circulates the house is "livable".

D) I guess to avoid kick-board heaters in order to save myself work and headache along the way. I will need to look into the other options.

 

[DonL]

You are very right about that. (Not sure if you live in NY)
Aside from the fire hazards -
It probably cost more money to heat 1 single room with electric heater - than to heat the entire house. (It is around 35 cents per KWH 1500 watts= 52 cents per hour. which could easily add up to 300 per month if left on all the time).

Sounds like you get reamed on electric cost. We pay 10 cents here in Texas.

Those oil filled heaters are really safe from catching fire. They do not draw a lot of continuous power after they warm up.

If you have a tru-value hardware near you, You may want to see what they have, or can get you.

Our old school hardware store beats Home Depot's made in China Crap.

Cooking a Turkey in the oven this time of year works for me. It is short term heating tho.

 

[Dana]

Don: In Texas you don't have nearly the grid infrastructure requirements of NY, and you're sitting right on top of coal seams and oil/gas puddles, and have a HUGE wind power resource (that's even cheaper power than combined cycle gas), suppressing wholesale price growth. Yes, energy is quite a bit more expensive in NY. When the grid infrastructure in TX gets old and needs upgrading to the extent that it is in NY, prices could rise there too. But growth in distributed PV in TX may put off the need for the kind of distribution grid infrastructure upgrading that NY is undergoing for decades, despite population growth. Even in NY distributed PV and demand-response is beginning to limit the scale of some of the infrastructure upgrades required, now that the regulatory environment is becoming more flexible.

curious1: Only the exterior walls and window count toward the heat load, not so much the floor area. It doesn't take a heluva lot of time to run an IBR heat load calc to come up with with the comparative heat loads of the rooms, which will allow you to size the rad for the kitchen at least somewhat appropriately for balance.

I have not done comparative pricing between online vendors of panel radiators, nor can I recall ever buying anything from ecomfort.com. Biasi tends to be value-priced relative to Buderus or Runtal, etc, but there are others. Myson is another value-priced panel radiator vendor, but IIRC the tallest they make are ~24", whereas you might have a nicer fit with a 36" tall version, or may need the output. Biasi makes a 16 x 36 incher that puts out as much heat as a 24 x 24 from most vendors, and the 24 x 36 is worth 10-11' of baseboard.

In NY it's possible to heat with best-in-class ductless mini-split heat pumps competitively with oil or propane, sometimes even beating low-efficiency natural gas. But without knowing the loads or configuration it's hard to say if that's even a remote possibility here. If the only wall area available is 24", probably not, and it's a huge upfront cost compared to a panel radiator.

Burnham and OCS both make brand-shiny new versions of the 5" deep x 20" tall cast-iron rads. A 10-section unit is 22.5" wide and puts out about much heat as a 7' stick of baseboard. The 8 section rads are 18" wide, and are comarable to 5-6' of baseboard. But they're quite a bit more expensive than a craigslist or antique radiator reseller pricing. A 10 section SunRad type radiator is hefty but not horrific-heavy (but the big 'uns can be.

 

[curious1]

Sounds like you get reamed on electric cost. We pay 10 cents here in Texas.

Those oil filled heaters are really safe from catching fire. They do not draw a lot of continuous power after they warm up.

If you have a tru-value hardware near you, You may want to see what they have, or can get you.

Our old school hardware store beats Home Depot's made in China Crap.

Cooking a Turkey in the oven this time of year works for me. It is short term heating tho.

Just looked at an Electric bill. It is actually about 30 Cents per KWH. There are a total of 9 Charges
Here is how it is broken up (I summarized the explanations to the):

1- Supply Charges

2- Merchant function Charge (To reimburse the utility company for all the non paying account holders).

3- (-Supply) GRT & other tax surcharges (Taxes on the Utility company's gross receipts from sales)

4-Basic Service Charge (System infrastructure, customer service, meter reading etc).

5- Delivery charges ( 10.2403 Cents per KWH)

6-SBC/RPS charges (for New York State government programs related to renewable energy)

7- Temporary NY State Surcharge ("Covers new fees imposed by the state")

8- (-Delivery) GRT & other Tax Surcharges (Same as above)

9- Sales Tax (For New York State and for locality)

(If I remember correctly - there used to be an MTA public transportation tax - and I never understood why do we need to pay for the NYC subway system - but I don't see it on this bill).

It all totals to almost 30 Cents per KWH.

 

[Reach4]

You don't want to include #4 on your economic analysis because it is independent of usage.

 

[DonL]

Just looked at an Electric bill. It is actually about 30 Cents per KWH. There are a total of 9 Charges
Here is how it is broken up (I summarized the explanations to the):

1- Supply Charges

2- Merchant function Charge (To reimburse the utility company for all the non paying account holders).

3- (-Supply) GRT & other tax surcharges (Taxes on the Utility company's gross receipts from sales)

4-Basic Service Charge (System infrastructure, customer service, meter reading etc).

5- Delivery charges ( 10.2403 Cents per KWH)

6-SBC/RPS charges (for New York State government programs related to renewable energy)

7- Temporary NY State Surcharge ("Covers new fees imposed by the state")

8- (-Delivery) GRT & other Tax Surcharges (Same as above)

9- Sales Tax (For New York State and for locality)

(If I remember correctly - there used to be an MTA public transportation tax - and I never understood why do we need to pay for the NYC subway system - but I don't see it on this bill).

It all totals to almost 30 Cents per KWH.

I get screwed on the Gas like that here.

I pay $25 a month just to have Gas, Even if I use none. Gas is still a little cheaper for heating. But electric is near %100 efficient.

I guess at 30 cents for electricity they guarantee power to never go out ?

 

[Dana]

I get screwed on the Gas like that here.

I pay $25 a month just to have Gas, Even if I use none. Gas is still a little cheaper for heating. But electric is near %100 efficient.

I guess at 30 cents for electricity they guarantee power to never go out ?

Yeah, like how the lights stayed on all through Sandy!

Something like half or more of the per-kwh pricing is related to grid infrastructure upgrades, including the "delivery charges" line item. Mainenance & upgrades are sorely needed in that region, which hosts some of the oldest grid infrastructure in the US. (It's where the whole electric utility company concept first caught on, after all.) Superstorm Sandy wiped out important chunks of infrastructure, and gave insight into where the regional & local grid needed significant hardening. Doing nothing isn't an option, but addressing the problems has costs. The hardware isn't cheap, nor is the cost of doing infrastructure development in established high-density population areas.

At 30 cents/kwh grid defection is close to financially rational at this year's battery & photovoltaic pricing, but NY (rightly) still has issues with parking lots of distributed lithium ion batteries in densely populated areas, which puts a hurdle in front of that (for now.) The regulatory environment is changing rapidly though, and the prices of both batteries & PV are also falling rapidly- we'll see how that eventually settles out!

If your electric heating is only 100% efficient you're not doing it right. ;-) In Texas air source heat pumps would make heating something like 350-400% efficient, and cheaper than natural gas.