No p-trap for new shower, contractor says OK. A bad idea.

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RF Martin

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As you can see in the photo, in a bath remodel, our contractor has installed a new shower drain at a new shower stall location so that it drains directly into a new passing toilet drain line without a p-trap in the shower drain line portion. He says there is a baffle of some kind in the reducer portion of the 4" toilet line wye fitting that "prevents water and waste from backing up into the shower drain". My Home Depot plumbing guys were unaware of such a fitting other than backflow valve for like a sump pump set up. Contractor says there are different kinds of "wye" fittings on the market and his has the baffle. However when we flush the toilet...down in the shower drain we still hear the water loudly rushing by and air comes up the shower drain. When the wind blows we can hear and feel it up the drain. Contractor says there was no room to put a standard p-trap and that this installation is legal, meets code and is accepted practice in plumbing. He says the loud rushing water noise in the shower is just a normal byproduct of this kind of installation. The toilet drain line continues to the vertical vent line which is the only vent line for the new shower/toilet drain system. The new toilet was relocated to a position about 10 feet away from the vent, using a 4" drain line. Here on your forum and others it seems a p-trap should have been installed on the shower drain...but I do see occasional references to alternate practices. We are at a loss whether we need to pursue repair of this before we accept it. The project is still underway, although this junction is now sealed under concrete and tile. Do we need to require that it be dug up and changed? Is it actually OK and we just need to ignore the noise? Do we get one of those SureSeal waterless drain trap sealers and plug it in?
Thank you

Shower Plumbing.jpg
New toilet line.jpg
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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The first Red Flag was when you wrote

Home Depot Plumber


No room for a P-trap? I highly doubt that. It's more probable they had no P-trap when they showed up to do the work. I have never seen a shower or tub line without a P-Trap.

All sinks have P-traps.

All showers have P-traps.

briggs_1.jpg


A toilet has none - but the toilet bowl itself is like a P-trap (holding water to prevent sewer gas from entering yur home).

index.php


My call would be to say "DO OVER"

Tell your plumber he is a hack. Ask him to remove his skirt and bust up a little more concrete and do the job right. He is going to need a few more fittings. Tell him you where willing to spent the extra $8.00 in ABS fittings

Not sure you can reduce the line like that either. You need HJ or Terry here.

I would stop all work now....
 
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hj

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DO NOT ACCEPT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, he is either trying to dazzle you with his brilliance or baffle you with B.S., and in this case it is the latter. There is NO FITTING that has a "baffle" to eliminate the need for a P trap, and you should call the city building department IMMEDIATELY and have an inspector check the entire job, because if he does not know how to install a "P" trap properly, who knows what else is wrong. It does NOT meet code, is NOT legal, and is definitely NOT an accepted practice. He also needs a vent so it will cost more than $8.00, but since it is his problem, that is his expense. I also question whether he has the proper slope on that long toilet line, probably not since a 3" line needs about 2 to 3 inches for that distance. From here, it looks like a 3" line, (4" on the outside), rather than a 4" pipe but without anything for a comparison, I may be incorrect.
 
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SHR

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What hj says but all in CAPITOL LETTERS! Add that it is dangerous to your families health to have continuous sewer gases allowed in to your home. I will bet the "contractor" did not use a licensed plumber because even the worst journeyman hacks I have worked with will not install a drain without the required p-trap! Your "contractor" is a dishonest idiot. Call your local inspector for an inspection ASAP.
 

ShowerDude

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RF,

Lets say for example you were looking for a deal on craigslist?? the right guy at the right price........say you found him there on that site... for example and he was $200 cheaper.....

go back and post his name and shennanigans for others to see and keep renewing said ad for a good while............

Very sorry to see you getting hosed like this, i am just curious as to how you got this far and how you sourced your handyman?? was it motivated by pricing, to good to be true?

have you thought as to how you are going to close that floor ( field) back up and tie in the cold joints? how close to the surface is that new 4" abs (if and when it gets pitched properly??) .......i hope this same handyman isn't doing this work too.

this type of handyman makes every home owner leary of contractors in general. Yet so many struggling homeowners keep looking for the Price ! the deal! . I do hope that's not your motive but it is all to common and can be indicative of this type of failed work..


If any 1 of those are an exterior wall, in my area would require a permit. for reno of a bathroom.


concrete and ABS are cheap and most of your demo is done so there is A positive side to it all.....
 
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Jadnashua

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It can be quite expensive to get the proper slope depending on the distances and elevations involved, but for your less than 4" ID drain pipes, it must be at least 1/4" per foot with no flat spots or rises. Some traps are shallower than others, but without being there and taking careful measurements, and seeing what's there to work with, you can't tell. The only certainty is that what you have is not correct. With no trap, you have an open connection to the sewer - it will not be pleasant!

If your main drain line is just below the slab, you may need to run a new one out into the yard towards where it attaches to the main sewer at the street to get the proper slope. The alternative is to put in a sump and ejection pump system, which is always the last option - gravity always wins, but stuff won't flow uphill!
 

RF Martin

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where are you located RF Martin? ( HJ TERRY? why do new members not have locations? isn't that a requirement? it was for me?)

RF,

Lets say for example you were looking for a deal on craigslist?? the right guy at the right price........say you found him there on that site... for example and he was $200 cheaper.....

go back and post his name and shennanigans for others to see and keep renewing said ad for a good while............

Very sorry to see you getting hosed like this, i am just curious as to how you got this far and how you sourced your handyman?? was it motivated by pricing, to good to be true?

have you thought as to how you are going to close that floor ( field) back up and tie in the cold joints? how close to the surface is that new 4" abs (if and when it gets pitched properly??) .......i hope this same handyman isnt doing this work too.

this type of handyman makes every home owner leary of contractors in general. Yet so many struggling homeowners keep looking for the Price ! the deal! . I do hope thats not your motive but it is all to common and can be indicitive of this type of failed work..


If any 1 of those are an exterior wall, in my area would require a permit. for reno of a bathroom.


concrete and ABS are cheap and most of your demo is done so there is A positive side to it all.....

Thanks for all the perspective and info. Regarding comments about low bids we did not go in search of cheapest option...this fella is charging middle rate...far from cheapest...not most expensive. We chose him only because he was highly recommended by a family friend who this fella did good work for..and he seemed professional in the pre-job interview. We had never had a renovation before now ourselves.
My Home Depot plumbing advisor helped me tremendously on previous minor projects at another home. He shares the forum's concerns now that I showed him the same photos on this project. Suggested I seek other professional opinions about possible advances in wye's and baffles which I am doing here and now with other local experts. So far the chorus of opinion is uniform. This set up is wrong. Looks like we are headed for a bust out of the pan area. Really disheartening. Thank you again for the expert evaluations and recommendations.
 

Jadnashua

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Keep in mind what a trap is and what it does. A trap is primarily a gas blocking device to prevent sewer gas, sewer flies, and other creepy crawlies from finding that open path into your home through your open pipe. No amount of baffles or redirecting flow will provide that function...your contractor is an idiot if he believes that. A properly built system would only allow waste to back up into the shower if there were a major clog in the lines, and even a p-trap can't stop that.

Building a shower is not particularly hard, but it is VERY detail oriented. If he has issues with the trap, while the cosmetics may be great, I'd maybe question his ability to build a shower that is built to one of the industry standards. There's more to it than a pan that doesn't leak. The Tile Council of North America lists multiple methods of building a proper, reliable shower, and the details must be followed carefully for the method chosen. Each different method has their advantages and detractions, but all can produce a reliable shower, good for long-term use without issues. All it takes is one hiccup, though, and it can fail. Keep in mind that some failures can take more than a couple of years to show up, so it is good to understand some of the details to verify things are being done right. The TCNA says 70-80% of the tiled showers built in the USA are not done right which is kind of sad. Given that problems don't always show up for awhile, some contractors think 'their' way must be good, and since there are so many incorrect installations, people get the idea that it's the 'oh, they all do that' syndrome. A properly built shower is a lifetime endeavor...you change it or replace it because you want new features or style, not because it failed if done right the first time.
 

RF Martin

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DO NOT ACCEPT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, he is either trying to dazzle you with his brilliance or baffle you with B.S., and in this case it is the latter. There is NO FITTING that has a "baffle" to eliminate the need for a P trap, and you should call the city building department IMMEDIATELY and have an inspector check the entire job, because if he does not know how to install a "P" trap properly, who knows what else is wrong. It does NOT meet code, is NOT legal, and is definitely NOT an accepted practice. He also needs a vent so it will cost more than $8.00, but since it is his problem, that is his expense. I also question whether he has the proper slope on that long toilet line, probably not since a 3" line needs about 2 to 3 inches for that distance. From here, it looks like a 3" line, (4" on the outside), rather than a 4" pipe but without anything for a comparison, I may be incorrect.
Thank you for the input...it is indeed a 4" toilet drain line...I don't recall what the shower drain line is...but guessing 2"?
 

RF Martin

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As you can see in the photo, in a bath remodel, our contractor has installed a new shower drain at a new shower stall location so that it drains directly into a new passing toilet drain line without a p-trap in the shower drain line portion. He says there is a baffle of some kind in the reducer portion of the 4" toilet line wye fitting that "prevents water and waste from backing up into the shower drain". My Home Depot plumbing guys were unaware of such a fitting other than backflow valve for like a sump pump set up. Contractor says there are different kinds of "wye" fittings on the market and his has the baffle. However when we flush the toilet...down in the shower drain we still hear the water loudly rushing by and air comes up the shower drain. When the wind blows we can hear and feel it up the drain. Contractor says there was no room to put a standard p-trap and that this installation is legal, meets code and is accepted practice in plumbing. He says the loud rushing water noise in the shower is just a normal byproduct of this kind of installation. The toilet drain line continues to the vertical vent line which is the only vent line for the new shower/toilet drain system. The new toilet was relocated to a position about 10 feet away from the vent, using a 4" drain line. Here on your forum and others it seems a p-trap should have been installed on the shower drain...but I do see occasional references to alternate practices. We are at a loss whether we need to pursue repair of this before we accept it. The project is still underway, although this junction is now sealed under concrete and tile. Do we need to require that it be dug up and changed? Is it actually OK and we just need to ignore the noise? Do we get one of those SureSeal waterless drain trap sealers and plug it in?
Thank youView attachment 26495 View attachment 26496
With all the input on the new shower drain above...I better share this new 'tub' drain photo, too...same contractor doing it...and now I believe it is similar story to the shower drain...no p-trap under tub. Contractor says the p-trap is in the same vertical vent line that the shower and toilet line dump into in photos above. That is about 8 feet away from tub drain. He says tub drain line enters the vent stack below where the 4" toilet line does...but above the vent line 'p-trap' he says exists down there. He says if there were no p-trap in the vent line, we would already smell sewer gas. We are very concerned and wondering what to believe. Am thinking of getting one of those sewer camera companies to poke a camera through this system and see what is really where or not

Tub drain.JPG
 
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SHR

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You were ripped off. A p-trap is absolutely required under the tub too. It reinforces that your "contractor" not only does not use a licensed plumber, but he does not have a license either. I hope you had a permit pulled for this work. The incompetence of the plumbing work is not only not to code, but it is very dangerous to you and your family. This plumbing HAS to be re-done.
 

Jadnashua

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The only common fixture in a home that does not need a p-trap underneath it is a toilet which has, effectively, one built into itself. Now, there are situations where you can 'wet vent' things, which means each individual thing may not need a separate vent, but those rules and implementation are fairly strict, and may not apply in your situation. Someone who says a tub or a shower does not need its own trap just does not understand the US plumbing codes. And, having it closer to its fixture is often better than further away because otherwise, the inside walls of the pipe could have all sorts of crud built up over time, and that would start to smell if not blocked by the trap. I can think of no situation where a trap could be 8' away and still meet code. Vents do NOT have traps in them - if they did, they could not 'vent'!
 
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hj

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The more you tell us the worse it gets. He is a complete "hack" and should NOT be allowed to do any construction work. HOW do you know he did "good work" for your relative since if you had not posted here, you might also think he did "good work" for you. He HAS to redo the work, but YOU do NOT have to pay him to do it, since you paid him once. And if he does NOT have a license, you do not even have to pay him ONCE. The TYPE of work done determines whether it needs a permit and inspection, not whether it is on an outside wall, and THIS job does need one.
 

ShowerDude

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to clarify...... for hj. exterior wall here in my locale forces us to pull permit for reasons of vapour barrier/insulation and of course this type of plumbing.

pretty much if a shower is on ext wall we will be demoing it to studs and the inspector wants to see proper measures before closing up wall.

once we know we have a bldg permit pulled we must sub out a licensed plumber as well as other trades.

thus eliminating this type work shown here in RFs project...as to my curiosity of where he lives.

this was my point ..... youre the plumber , ill shut up now!

carry on!
 

hj

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At least if you are going to "screw it up" do it in such a way that the two traps become one big one rather than a "double trap" which would NOT drain at all. That shows the danger of letting someone do their own plumbing when they have a bunch of parts they want to use up. I have never seen a code which would allow anything much more than a sink or toilet replacement to be done without a permit and inspection, and certainly NOT something to the extent of this remodel.

dwv_traps.jpg
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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HJ I think in Canada it's everything past the P-Traps is good to go for home owners. New pipe. Stuff buried. Things like that are a no go. So a tub to shower conversion is OK since it shares the same drain line.

New sink fixtures are OK because the old shut offs are used.

Start moving shit - time to retest and for that you need a permit. To get that you need a plumber with a ticket and license for that municipality.

The Basics....
 
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