New well parts failing

[Coloradogirl]

August 2019, local well service installed: new 220 1 hp submersible pump; new QD pump controller; new fiberglass 100 gal tank and returned a few weeks later to replace 30/50 with a 40/60 pressure switch.
Within weeks (Sept. 2019) the controller shut off well and on reset found the pressure switch rapid cycling machine gun fast - pressure bouncing to 20 psi cut in to 40-45 psi cut out then 43 cut in 50 cut out. Called well installer but as it was a weekend, told them I'd limit use and they could come normal business day. He never called or showed up - illness hampered my follow through. Until May 2020, I called and informed them the short cycle was so rapid the p-switch was sparking and controller was hot to the touch that I would limit use (100 degree weather) until they came out. Was told he was busy, after 4 weeks called again and asked when??? as my trees and landscaping were dying. At 6 weeks I called a different well service that arrived 3 hours later.

The pressure switch had burn marks on lid and had to be replaced. On replacement, the short cycle continued and they emptied tank and found the pressure to be 55psi (no water from schrader valve) and they bled pressure to the 38 psi cut in and the pressure switch worked normally. At 7 weeks, the orig installer called and said he could come out. When informed I had another repair and would bill him - he was pissed.

It is about 3 weeks after repair and the system is starting to short cycle again, which I interpret as the problem is upstream from pressure switch; a faulty tank was installed or faulty pump - or both. Clearly the installer ignoring extreme short cycling put the longevity of the new pump at risk but how do I proceed on getting the system operating? I am concerned the orig. installer may have delayed to run out the warranties and have some trust issues there. The system components that were replaced had lasted for 19 years - the replacements only weeks before malfunctioning. If it were you - how would you proceed?

 

[Boycedrilling]

It sounds like your main problem is your pressure tank. Look on it and find the brand name, size and date code. The pump in the well had a 5 year warranty. Most pressure tanks have the same. The control box may have a shorter warranty. Don't know Colorado contractor law. It varies from state to state. In my state any homeowner work is automatically a one year warranty parts and labor.

Did you sign any contacts or receive an estimate from your original installer? Do you have his contractor 's license number?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

On replacement, the short cycle continued and they emptied tank and found the pressure to be 55psi (no water from schrader valve) and they bled pressure to the 38 psi cut in and the pressure switch worked normally.

Water does not always come out of the valve with a failed bladder/diaphragm. Water can cross over to the air side never to return and compress the air at the top.

Bleeding off some of the trapped air is not a solution and not even a good temporary fix.

 

[LLigetfa]

new fiberglass 100 gal tank

IMHO, those tanks are a poor design. Unlike most metal tanks that have a diaphragm, those tanks have a bladder. A diaphragm moves up and down with the edge gently rolling against the tank wall. A bladder looks like a football and gets compressed by the water pressure. This creates many sharp folds. The higher the pressure, the sharper the folds. The sharp folds tend to form in the same places and over time the repeated bending breaks it.

BTW, if you search for videos or pictures using the term "how a bladder tank works", you will see mostly diaphragm tanks. The term "bladder" is often incorrectly used in reference to diaphragm pressure tanks.

 

[LLigetfa]

Oh, forgot to mention that there are two fundamental styles of bladder tank. One style holds air inside the bladder while the water occupies the space between the bladder and the tank wall. This design applies the highest pressure on the folds as it squeezes the bladder while the lowest pressure stretches the bladder.

The other style holds water inside the bladder while the air occupies the space between the bladder and tank wall. This design applies the lowest pressure against the folds while the highest pressure stretches the badder.

 

[Reach4]

IMHO, those tanks are a poor design. Unlike most metal tanks that have a diaphragm, those tanks have a bladder. A diaphragm moves up and down with the edge gently rolling against the tank wall. A bladder looks like a football and gets compressed by the water pressure. This creates many sharp folds. The higher the pressure, the sharper the folds. The sharp folds tend to form in the same places and over time the repeated bending breaks it.

Pentair WellMate fiberglass pressure tanks have a replaceable bladder, but the bladders are pretty expensive. Flex-Lite fiberglass tanks have a diaphragm.

 

[LLigetfa]

Flex-Lite fiberglass tanks have a diaphragm.

I stand corrected.
It doesn't look like they have an internal dome to prevent over-stretching the diaphragm as some steel tanks have.

 

[Coloradogirl]

It sounds like your main problem is your pressure tank. Look on it and find the brand name, size and date code. The pump in the well had a 5 year warranty. Most pressure tanks have the same. The control box may have a shorter warranty. Don't know Colorado contractor law. It varies from state to state. In my state any homeowner work is automatically a one year warranty parts and labor.

Did you sign any contacts or receive an estimate from your original installer? Do you have his contractor 's license number?

Got a verbal estimate that was from the man who had put in the 2001 replacement. ALL the parts were new August 2019 and the problem was noted and reported a month later when the well shut down. The well components are in the shop about 150' from the house so not apparent until critical. The installer is working under another group's permit/license.

Believe the tank is a Pentair; controller a 220 Franklin QD rated to 1.5 hp; 220 submersible pump 1hp maybe a Franklin; square D 40/60 pressure switch. All were 30 days old at start of issue and would clearly each be under warranty. The installer was unresponsive after 9 months and 4 calls. The contractor was paid immediately. The short cycling was constant at machine gun speed and continued for 9 months until another contractor replaced the pressure gage and reset the pressure of the tank to the appropriate 2 psi below the cut off point of the switch. The incorrect psi could have been either tank fault or installer error.

30 days to recurrence points to a faulty tank, I assume. I'm worried that 9 months of short cycling has shortened the pump life considerably. How accountable, to make this right, is the well service?

 

[Reach4]

Got a verbal estimate that was from the man who had put in the 2001 replacement. ALL the parts were new August 2019 and the problem was noted and reported a month later when the well shut down. The well components are in the shop about 150' from the house so not apparent until critical. The installer is working under another group's permit/license.

Have you tried contacting the licensed group?

 

[Coloradogirl]

Water does not always come out of the valve with a failed bladder/diaphragm. Water can cross over to the air side never to return and compress the air at the top.

Bleeding off some of the trapped air is not a solution and not even a good temporary fix.

The tank was new at the start of the issue and the p-switch when finally checked had scorched the cover. The controller was getting too hot to touch. All parts being new, it's a process of elimination, I suppose. The problem was noted 30 days from installation but the installer has been unresponsive and when contacted annoyed at being asked to come by and check the system. And didn't for over 9 months. The other well tech hoped the issue was an installation error. Tank psi near 60 on a 40/60 switch was a start. Clearly, now, the tank is faulty. Could there be other upstream issues with the pump or controller that might create tank failure?

 

[Coloradogirl]

Have you tried contacting the licensed group?

No. I need the system to function but am hesitant to threaten or impact a man's living. What could I expect from contacting them?

 

[Ballvalve]

The tank was new at the start of the issue and the p-switch when finally checked had scorched the cover. The controller was getting too hot to touch. All parts being new, it's a process of elimination, I suppose. The problem was noted 30 days from installation but the installer has been unresponsive and when contacted annoyed at being asked to come by and check the system. And didn't for over 9 months. The other well tech hoped the issue was an installation error. Tank psi near 60 on a 40/60 switch was a start. Clearly, now, the tank is faulty. Could there be other upstream issues with the pump or controller that might create tank failure?

The pump was left to turn on and off every few seconds for 9 months? Are you serious? Should not have lasted for a week. The contacts on the pressure switch would have been toasted very quickly. And I don't think you have a QD box if it has resettable overloads. https://www.zoro.com/franklin-electric-control-box-1-12hp-230v-1phase-2823008110/i/G0542656/ As for your question about reduced life of the pump, that would seem certain. As for pressure tanks, I use plain steel tanks with no rubber or plastic inside. Nothing to break, just need to add air every month or so.

 

[Coloradogirl]

I stand corrected.
It doesn't look like they have an internal dome to prevent over-stretching the diaphragm as some steel tanks have.

These tanks are almost exclusively used in the area - maybe installer preferences. However, my experience prior with the Pentair is they last over 8 years. The new tank was less than 30 days to extreme short cycle behavior of the p-switch. My search of the tanks were that incorrect factory pressure settings were rare and bladder fault rare - but happen. When I reported issues to the installer, I suggested tank and upstream problems with the systems. I received no response for 9 months and 4 calls. What should I expect and request from the installer?

 

[Ballvalve]

No. I need the system to function but am hesitant to threaten or impact a man's living. What could I expect from contacting them?

Depending on the state, and the contractor, expect nothing and be glad for anything. State boards are vicious to UNlicensed workers, and you say he was working "Under" another license. That may well be illegal and a point in your favor. If I had a friend with rapid, constant cycling, I would be there in a moment. Death to the system

Seems like you only need a pressure tank. As for the reduced life of the pump and control box components, that will remain an unknown. You most likely need at least a new start capacitor immediately. 10 to 15$, BMI brand 108-130 uF

 

[Reach4]

No. I need the system to function but am hesitant to threaten or impact a man's living. What could I expect from contacting them?

I would hope they would either motivate him to respond to you, or would refer you to whoever took over that position.

I am pretty ignorant of what to expect. If you get interested in troubleshooting, that's easier. If you are interested in working around the problem until the system is fixed, that is doable if you are motivated to do so.

You have already said enough to show it is highly likely that the problem is the pressure tank. Pentair's strong area is not pressure tanks.

I presume that when you don't use water, the pump does not cycle.

 

[Coloradogirl]

The pump was left to turn on and off every few seconds for 9 months? Are you serious? Should not have lasted for a week. The contacts on the pressure switch would have been toasted very quickly. And I don't think you have a QD box if it has resettable overloads. https://www.zoro.com/franklin-electric-control-box-1-12hp-230v-1phase-2823008110/i/G0542656/ As for your question about reduced life of the pump, that would seem certain. As for pressure tanks, I use plain steel tanks with no rubber or plastic inside. Nothing to break, just need to add air every month or so.

Yes for over 9 months. I live alone and tried to limit demand on the system to bare bones waiting for the installer. No follow up by me over the winter due to poor health. The inside of the p-switch was absolutely blackened at replacement. The QD reset is to pull off and put cover on again. It had shut off water twice and as the tank has 100 gal +/- it was cool by the time I was out of water. A recheck end of day saw the controller too hot to touch.
The rapid switching is only apparent in the house water pressure cycling as the system is installed a few hundred feet from the house. I called starting early May 2020 and after 6 weeks - 3 calls, called another well service that arrived in a few hours. Replaced burned 40/60 and reset of tank psi; the returned short cycle leads to assume tank failure.
There isn't anyway I can air up a steel tank every few months but the Well X Trol tanks are rated highly. But then, my previous experience of about 9 years service isn't bad. The water in this region has high mineral content and is extremely alkaline - I've had the water literally eat all but stainless steel metals. This may explain the near exclusive use of fiberglass tanks regionally.

My question relates to probable damage to the upstream components from being ignored by the installer and how, reasonably, should the well service be accountable for not bothering.

 

[Coloradogirl]

I would hope they would either motivate him to respond to you, or would refer you to whoever took over that position.

If you get interested in troubleshooting, that's easier. If you are interested in working around the problem until the system is fixed, that is doable if you are motivated to do so.

You have already said enough to show it is highly likely that the problem is the pressure tank. Pentair's strong area is not pressure tanks.

I presume that when you don't use water, the pump does not cycle.

Interested in work around - extreme drought here and 100 degree weather damaged orchard and bearing shrubs this spring from having to limit well use. I can't afford to replace the system after only a year. I need the well service to provide a working well. Meantime, I don't want it to set my shop on fire as I work a solution. It appears, other than having the 2nd well service repair, I'm all I have....and all of you guys.

No, the pump does not cycle if there's no use of water. Last year on discovery of the problem, I check to assure no leaks in pipes or running/leaking toilets, fixtures or hydrants. I've 80 acres and hydrants to livestock pens. No problems - no leaks draining tank.

At replacement of scorched p-switch, the system worked perfectly for about 30-45 days. Short cycle has started again - need to walk out to shop and check pressures.

 

[Reach4]

At replacement of scorched p-switch, the system worked perfectly for about 30-45 days. Short cycle has started again - need to walk out to shop and check pressures.

1. I suggest that you post a photo that includes the pipe from the well, the pressure switch and the input to the pressure tank.
2. With whatever size and condition pressure tank, you will minimize cycling by using as much water as the pump produces to do your watering. The maximum cycling occurs when you use 1/2 as many gpm as the pump produces.
3. You did not ask, but adding more air can work around a failed pressure tank for a while. Over-do it, and you could risk blasts of air coming out of a faucet or sprinkler.

 

[LLigetfa]

another contractor replaced the pressure gage and reset the pressure of the tank to the appropriate 2 psi below the cut off point of the switch.

2 PSI below cutoff is NOT APPROPRIATE. It needs to be 2 PSI below cut-in.

 

[Boycedrilling]

The installer is working under another group's permit/license

The license holder is who has responsibility. Have you contacted them directly? It's their license on the line. They bear responsibility for anyone working under their license.