New Well, Need Advice on Systems

[BadDad]

so the general consensus is that a VFD is not a good system?

 

[Craigpump]

This guy is looking for a Lexus LS460 job at a Nissan Sentra price, and that is not gonna happen.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[BadDad]

Yup all I could afford to buy my wife was the Lexus es350. She really did want the ls460.

Anyhow, I thank you guys for all your feedback.

 

[Valveman]

so the general consensus is that a VFD is not a good system?

The constant pressure performance and ability to work with a smaller tank using a VFD are certainly good things. However, the CSV will deliver the same constant pressure and also works with a smaller tank. They are both good systems. Just that you can pay 100 bucks a month to maintain the electronic VFD system, or 30 bucks a month for a CSV mechanical constant pressure system? This is why the installer and pump manufacture thinks the VFD system is best, while most homeowners think the CSV system is best.

This guy is looking for a Lexus LS460 job at a Nissan Sentra price, and that is not gonna happen.

Well I wouldn't say a VFD is like a Lexus LS460. But if it is, then a CSV is also like a Lexus LS460, which can be had for a Nissan Sentra price.

I think a better example is that you can't get a DIY price on a system that is installed complete by an experienced, licensed, and insured professional, who guarantees and stands behind his work. DIY is very risky on a deep well like this, and the contractor takes on that responsibility.

 

[BadDad]

Its not a matter of me being a dick or trying to screw someone over. Its a lot of money. And i am trying to get the best bang for my buck, i work really really hard for every dollar i have. I also have two small kids who need to be raised and i'm in the process of building our house so if i can save money by shopping around, or getting different bids then that all goes back to the family. I'll keep trying and eventually i will get the system at what i believe to be a fair price.
I do agree that my well is beyond the realm of DIY.... i dont want to risk personal injury or well damage for a few thousand dollars..

 

[Craigpump]

I'm not trying to be a "dick" either, but I think you fail to realize what goes into running a business AND the value of a quality water system. Sure, you can't show it off like cherry cabinets, crown moulding, custom wainscoting, granite countertops, mahogany garage doors or crystal chandeliers, but without water, the rest of it is useless.

Another thing you need to consider is....how much water does your family use on a daily basis? The national average is 75-80 gallons per day.

4 people X 80 gpd= 116,800 gallons a year x 15 year system life =1,752,000 gallons, divided into $12,000 = .00000856 cents per gallon. Tell me that isn't the best deal on earth.

 

[Reach4]

Another thing you need to consider is....how much water does your family use on a daily basis? The national average is 75-80 gallons per day.

I think he is starting an irrigated small farm. See post #3.

 

[BadDad]

I'm not trying to be a "dick" either, but I think you fail to realize what goes into running a business AND the value of a quality water system. Sure, you can't show it off like cherry cabinets, crown moulding, custom wainscoting, granite countertops, mahogany garage doors or crystal chandeliers, but without water, the rest of it is useless.

Another thing you need to consider is....how much water does your family use on a daily basis? The national average is 75-80 gallons per day.

4 people X 80 gpd= 116,800 gallons a year x 15 year system life =1,752,000 gallons, divided into $12,000 = .00000856 cents per gallon. Tell me that isn't the best deal on earth.

why would you assume i dont know what goes into running a business?
I've been running the family business for over a decade. maybe that is exactly why i have a hard time justifying the price.

 

[Texas Wellman]

I'm kind of confused about the whole proposition. If you want to save money you can probably get by with a much smaller pump/system. You're over-complicating things. If your well makes enough water can the cistern or at least delay it for future uses. Go with one pump/tank system, use the smaller pump that requires smaller wire and smaller pipe. I'm betting you can make use of a much smaller pump and overestimating how much water you really need.

 

[Craigpump]

why would you assume i dont know what goes into running a business?
I've been running the family business for over a decade. maybe that is exactly why i have a hard time justifying the price.

I think he is starting an irrigated small farm. See post #3.

Then the water is even less expensive on a per gallon basis

 

[Craigpump]

why would you assume i dont know what goes into running a business?
I've been running the family business for over a decade. maybe that is exactly why i have a hard time justifying the price.

Then you should know that the $12,000 price tag is an absolute bargain, especially when you consider the equipment & experience required to this job. Did I mention the warranties?

I would venture to say that your local grocery chain has a greater markup percentage wise on on the items they sell.

 

[BadDad]

I'm kind of confused about the whole proposition. If you want to save money you can probably get by with a much smaller pump/system. You're over-complicating things. If your well makes enough water can the cistern or at least delay it for future uses. Go with one pump/tank system, use the smaller pump that requires smaller wire and smaller pipe. I'm betting you can make use of a much smaller pump and overestimating how much water you really need.

Well, the $12,000 bid is just for a pump and one pressure tank.
I was wanting the cistern and double tanks, but if thats not necessary, then i'll forego it.

 

[BadDad]

Then you should know that the $12,000 price tag is an absolute bargain, especially when you consider the equipment & experience required to this job. Did I mention the warranties?

I would venture to say that your local grocery chain has a greater markup percentage wise on on the items they sell.

well, if i have no choice then i have no choice. but first i will try to get a better deal...

 

[Valveman]

well, if i have no choice then i have no choice. but first i will try to get a better deal...

Sometimes drillers and pump installers will work with you. I have let people pay out over time before. Just be sure and ask for this up front. We don't like it when people wait until the pump is in the well to tell us they don't have enough money. I have been known to pull the pump back out and take it home with me. If they were not up front with me, I couldn't trust them to pay later either.

 

[BadDad]

I'm a man of integrity. I'm not going pull any shit like that on the well driller.
Its not a matter of not having the funds available. I was just trying to see if there are any other options at a better price.

here's them developing the well, probably the best part of the whole experience

 

[BadDad]

 

[Valveman]

I am sorry! I wasn't trying to insult you. I wish your well was more shallow so you could DIY. The drillers and installers here try to help people distinguish between what can and can't be a DIY job. If it is not a DIY job, the best you can do is get as many quotes as you can and try to make the best decision. However, the cheapest quote is not always the most cost efficient. Try to work with someone who you at least think knows what they are talking about.

Thanks for the videos! I love to watch water squirting out of a pipe, and I love to watch kids and dogs playing in it.

 

[BadDad]

yeah my son would have jumped in front of the pipe if I would have let him, lol. it was mid 50's and raining and he still wanted to be out there playing.

I'm going to call all the pump companies again and ask for new bids. see if i can get them to give me a bid. I'll just ask for a pump and a pressure tank. and if for some reason in the future i feel the need for a cistern i'll add that later.

From what i gather, i'll have 1 acre of landscape around the house, 1 acre orchard, a green house, some animal pens and i'd like to have hose bibs throughout the property. I'm assuming a 40 gpm pump should suffice. that paired with a large pressure tank should be what i need.

 

[Valveman]

You need to size the pump to match the largest single sprinkler zone you will be running. Everything else will use much less water. 40 GPM is a lot of water. And if you have a 40 GPM pump with just a pressure tank, even if you had two big tanks, you still need to make every sprinkler zone exactly 40 GPM, so the pump does not cycle itself to death. With 2 GPM sprinkler heads, you would need to run 20 sprinklers at a time, every time you turn on sprinklers. You never want to run less than twenty, 2 GPM sprinklers at a time with a 40 GPM pump. You can never run sprinklers off the hose bibs, as they will not put out 40 GPM.

The whole point of the CSV or VFD is that you can use less than 40 GPM without hurting the pump. The CSV will vary the pump output from 40 GPM down to 5 GPM. Which means you don't have to run 20 sprinklers every time. As long as you are using more than 5 GPM, the CSV will prevent the pump from cycling.

Depending on the size of well casing, a VFD can vary the pump flow from 40 to maybe 7 GPM. So you only have to use more than 7 GPM when irrigating for any length of time.

You can also have the well man install just the down hole equipment. Then you can add the CSV and pressure tank, or even a VFD if you want. The only problem there is that if something goes wrong with the pump, the pump man may blame your controls and not warranty the labor to pull the pump. If it was a warranty issue the pump manufacturer would still take care of the pump, just not the labor.

Instead of starting with how much water the well will make, you need to start with the max amount of water you will be using at even given time. I think you will find that a 2 HP, 15 GPM (7-8 sprinklers at a time) pump will be even be larger than you need. Sizing to the demand instead of the well production will allow you to use a much smaller pump. The smaller pump will cost less, last longer, use a smaller tank and CSV, and will be easier to install.

If you need to run even one 40 GPM sprinkler zone, then you will need a 40 GPM pump, and the additional cost that go with. My well will make 200 GPM, but a 20 GPM pump is more than I need.

 

[BadDad]

I dont have the spec sheet on my sprinklers, but they are all on 1.5" pipe. i doubt i would ever run more than 10 sprinklers at a time.
Ideally, i'd rather go with the bigger pump and have it run below its max capacity. Then if the need ever arises, say the sprinklers come on early and my wife is bathing the kids, we dont lose pressure/flow.