New Weird Sediment...Ideas?

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Reach4

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Since the pump can "outpump" the well all day, do I just let it run at about 5 gallons a minute and deal with the pump cycling on/off all day long while I develop this thing or is the method I've been using the best I Can hope for in this situation?
Pump til it runs out of water and then wait for a while. I am not a pro. There are gadgets to automate the out-of-water detection and shut off the pump for an interval.

If that pump ever fails, put a properly sized pump in. I would think 1/2 hp 7gpm or 3/4 hp 10 hp if you have to backwash a backwashing iron filter.

As to if the slots were too big, what can I say? Too late now. What size slots are they?
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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As to if the slots were too big, what can I say? Too late now. What size slots are they?

Don't remember the size, however they said it was pretty standard for my area (Central KS) and worked well with the size gravel they got. I attached a pic.

I thought the pump was too big as well, however, when you have no water and they only have 2 different pumps available, I went with the better of the two options.

Thanks for your input! I will continue to pump down the water level then let it fill in. then repeat ad nauseum.

casing slots..jpg
 

Valveman

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With the CSV you can run just 5 gpm and the pump will not cycle. But the sand is not good for the CSV, pump, or anything. Any gravel pack? Call the driller. They need to fix it.
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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With the CSV you can run just 5 gpm and the pump will not cycle. But the sand is not good for the CSV, pump, or anything. Any gravel pack? Call the driller. They need to fix it.

I am waiting until the well clears up to install the CSV. Thankfully after days and days of pumping, the sand isn't nearly as much as it was, however as you mentioned, it is still a problem.

The well log shows and I watch them add gravel from the bottom of the well to 20 ft. Then they finished the last 20 ft. off with bentonite as required by Kansas.

Since their contract stated they don't promise quality/clarity/etc. I'm not sure how I would get them to do anything about it. What is annoying is this is the number one recommended well driller within 100 miles or more and I personally know a handful of people with great wells from them.

Thanks again for putting up with the noob questions, private well ownership is brand new to me and I've learned more than I ever wanted to and still don't know squat!
 

Reach4

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Glad it is clearing. Keep up your pumping.
I tried running it connected to a hose for 36 hours and the water did run clear, so opened the valve to the house and viola, sand/fines in the water.
You should have a cartridge sediment filter. Even with city water, a cartridge filter is a good idea.

I like the 4.5x20 Pentair Big Blue housings. A bypass around is best. I keep a spare o-ring on hand, tho I could bypass in a pinch.
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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Glad it is clearing. Keep up your pumping.

You should have a cartridge sediment filter. Even with city water, a cartridge filter is a good idea.

I have a typical GE whole house filter 10x4.5. It became plugged within a few minutes of connecting the water which is why I have disconnected it from the house.

I am waiting on my water testing results and of course, the lab is having issues with equipment failures so I won't know actual water data for another 1.5 weeks. at this forums recommendation I went ahead and purchased a Katalox light system with a fleck valve since I'm familiar with those and will be getting it plumbed this coming week. The new well is only about 20 ft. from the old well since water is evidently hard to find where I am located so I'm guessing the numbers will be mostly the same.
 

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I have a typical GE whole house filter 10x4.5. It became plugged within a few minutes of connecting the water which is why I have disconnected it from the house.
The water for the yard spigots would typically not be be going thru the filter.

On the KL, 10x54 inch tank?
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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The water for the yard spigots would typically not be be going thru the filter.

On the KL, 10x54 inch tank?

Yes to the hydrants doesn't go to the house. Mistyped and meant I closed the valve into my house.

Yes, 1.5 cubic ft of kl in a 10x54 tank. I checked the literature and I should be able to provide
Plenty of gpm for the duration of the backwash.

Also purchased the spin down filter from atlas that you recommended.

So all in csv, then pressure tank to spin down (90 micron) to kl, to 160k softener to whole house filter. Assuming that will work. Goodness. Water is hard work
 

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Just keep pumping. The gravel pack will catch the large sand. The large sand will catch some fine sand. Once the fine sand is settled in the gravel pack it will make a good media filter and keep any more sand from getting through. As long as the gravel was small enough, it is not bridged off somewhere down hole, or there is no hole or break in the casing it should clear up eventually. Developing a well is more important than the drilling and sometimes it takes a while.
 

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Update on the well situation:

I have been pumping it as much as I can and the yield has gone up slightly to around 8.9-9.9 gpm. However, it was as cloudy/sandy as ever and is not clearing up at all, actually had gotten darker and was pulling more dark brown to black fine particles.

Yesterday I pulled the pump and found the brand new stainless steel housing was already experiencing some minor corrosion on the outside of it. I raised the level of the pump 6 feet at the request of the driller to make sure it wasn't too low so now it is sitting at approximately 79-80 ft. in a 90 ft. well.

The driller had a different opinion on how to clear the well, he said I was overpumping it which was causing the sand to continue. He said since I have 40 feet of screen with a static water level of 54 ft I needed to pump closer to the yield rate of the well. He is willing to drill another well at no cost to me if I can't get this thing cleared up so that is a major positive!

I ran my hydrant at about 6-7.5 gpm all day yesterday and the well did in fact clear up in about 5 hours. Now it is roughly a teaspoon of sand/fines per 5 gallon bucket. Some larger grains but mostly just very small and not a lot.

I have a cycle stop valve from Valveman ready to install in my well but wasn't sure if that was too much sediment for the CSV. The driller suggests/highly recommends that I also install a 7.5gpm dole valve to limit the intake of debris. I am thinking that as long as I am careful with my water intake the only time that I would approach even 10gpm is when my Katalox unit is backwashing so I should probably be okay with just the CSV....Any opinions? Thanks so much for all the help! We are almost there! (ignore the black thing on the left, it blew in)
20210921_184247.jpg
 

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Always good to have advice from a local driller who knows what he is doing and stands behind his work. Some areas if you put in small enough gravel pack to stop the sand you also shut off the water. Sounds like he is using larger gravel and that maybe the reason. With larger gravel limiting the max flow will help, but I hate to have to limit the flow. A Dole valve and a Cycle Stop Valve work well together when needed as the Dole valve will limit the max flow to 7.5 GPM and the CSV will work the pump from 1 to 7.5 GPM as needed. If you can live with 7.5 GPM max flow that sounds like a plan.
 

Reach4

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7.5 is pretty close to what backwashing KL in a 10 inch diameter tank would take if the water is not warm.

index.php
 

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Getting the well to clear when pumped at higher than the flow rate required, should ensure the water will be more likely to remain clear while drawn at the usual lower rate.

While 7.5 GPM will be usually more than sufficient for most single homes, you said your KL filter may require 10 GPM for backwash. If 7.5 GPM is insufficient to cause the KL media to be sufficiently backwashed, that may cause issues with media performance. If 10 GPM is needed for the filter, that may result in further sediment being added to the KL media during backwash instead of eliminating it.

Specify the diameter of the KL filter tank and your incoming water temperature so as to determine the appropriate backwash rate range needed for the KL media.
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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My KL is 10x54 with 1.5 cubic feet of media and 1 sleeve of gravel underneath it. I may have improperly read flow rate required for cleaning it from their brochures. I haven't measured water temp but it is "uncomfortably cold", comparable to water that would come out of a cold water dispenser, estimate between 44-52 degrees.

Just hoping that the small amount of debris I am still getting clears out before I install the KL system next week (or is caught in the Atlas spin down) and based on that chart above, I think I can do with just the CSV and not worry about the dole valve since the KL is the highest gpm consumer I've got. Thanks for the help! You guys are awesome!
 

Reach4

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The highest flow will be when the pump first turns on, and the pressure tank is accepting water at a high rate.
Just hoping that the small amount of debris I am still getting clears out before I install the KL system next week (or is caught in the Atlas spin down)
Atlas should take out the coarser sand. The finest sand should backwash out, or at least I would hope.

I certainly don't have numbers on how fine of sand should be expected to backwash out. I wonder if you should take action to catch backwashed-out sand. In the summer you can route that to the yard, but not in hard freezing weather.
US-ground-temps.gif
 
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Mr. Mud Maker

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I wonder if you should take action to catch backwashed-out sand. In the summer you can route that to the yard, but not in hard freezing weather.

I didn't even think about the stuff that was backwashed out. Currently the softener and the filters will be going into my sump in the basement which is lifted via a 3" pipe directly to the sewer line which then runs 150' to our sewer lagoon...hmmm
 

Bannerman

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The usual recommendation for backwashing Katalox Light is 10-15 GPM per square foot cross section to acheive 20-30% bed expansion.

For a 10" diameter tank with 60°F incoming flow temperature, this will be 5.4-8.1 GPM. With 44°F - 53°F water for backwashing, the backwash rate should be reduced to between 75-90 % of the 60°F rate to acheive equivalent bed expansion.

Because the 54" tall tank will support up to 50% bed expansions, suggest backwashing at the upper limit or slightly higher for your water temperature if possible.

The link below is to 2-charts, the lower indicating the recommended backwash rate per square foot cross section for various media, the upper to convert the sq/ft recommendation to the GPM for various diameter tanks. The temperature correction factor is specified directly below the upper chart.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155
 

Reach4

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In case you are feeling inspired....

Regarding whether fine sand would backwash out, you could determine the velocity that that particle would fall through water. If the backwash velocity is significantly higher than that, figure the particle backwashes out.

So what is the falling velocity? You could try Stokes Law. Or you could drop some of the fine sand you have collected, and watch and time its fall through water. Figure the velocity.
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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Hopefully this will be my last post asking what in the heck I'm doing wrong! I've finally managed to get the well running mostly clear. I hooked up my KL unit today and attempted a backwash cycle (60 minutes per the manufacturer for the first time)... Everything seemed to be working but....

Issue:
I stopped timing the flow rate of the backwash when 2 minutes hadn't gotten more than 3/4 of a 5 gallon bucket full..... What in the world am I doing wrong? (fleck 5600sxt valve/10x54 tank, 1.5 cubic ft KL)
The rapid rinse is running about 5.5 gpm

how do I increase the backwash to 8.1 gpm when from what I'm seeing the fleck 5600sxt only goes to 5 gpm! (why do they sell it like this!)

In other news the csv is awesome however mine fills my tank at about 3 to 5 gallons per minute. Otherwise functions like a dream!
 
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