New shallow well

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by banjo bud, Sep 24, 2018.

  1. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    South Carolina
    Brand new member here. I am in the midst of planning a shallow well instalation and have a few questions. First, I have been researching where to put a check valve and some say at the bottom of the suction pipe (foot valve) and others say 2' from the pump. My well is about 10' deep and 80' from the house. I would love to not have a foot valve and only a check valve near the pump but I am wondering how I would fill the suction pipe with water in order to prime the system without a foot valve. I have a Goulds J5SH pump. Do I even need to fill the suction pipe or will the pump pull water if I only fill the pump with water through the prime port on top? I imagine a check valve near the pump holds water in the suction pipe in the same way holding your thumb over a straw holds water in the straw. Is that correct? But still, how do you get the suction pipe filled initially without a foot valve? Another question I have is about limiting flow from the pump into my pressure tank. My well only puts out 5 GPM so I want to limit the output of the pump to that amount also. Would I put a ball valve on the suction line or the output line to do this? And is a ball valve the best way to do this?
     
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    With one of these controlling your J5SH the pump would only put out as much as you are using. Don't use more than 5 GPM, and the pump will never put out more than 5 GPM. Plus it fills the tank at 1 GPM, allowing the use of a very small tank. You can always add a 5 GPM Dole valve with the CSV1A if you want to make sure no one can use more than 5 GPM. I think you answered your own question about priming and needing the foot valve at the bottom of the well if possible. :)

    https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/pk1a-pside-kick
     
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  4. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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  5. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    I was under the impression that if a pump puts out more GPM than the drawdown of a tank, it won't run long enough. It needs to run for a minute minimum. So I chose a tank with a 5.7 gallon drawdown. My pump will put out more than that unless I throttle it somehow. And so you're saying I need a foot valve? I also have another question. Since I have roughly 100' of suction pipe to lay, I was looking at a roll of poly pipe. But gosh that stuff looks hard to work with. Especially getting it to uncoil from that roll it's probably been in for 6 months. Run hot water through it maybe? Or get regular PVC in 10' sections and use couplings?
     
  6. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    Sorry Valveman, I didn’t see the link. Yeah, I considered a CSV but for some reason decided to go traditional tank. Did I make the wrong decision?
     
  7. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    What is the diameter of the well? How far down is the water?
     
  8. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    Ok, Here’s some more details about this unique well.

    I have a spring that has good water. I had it tested. It was in a trench about 5’ deep. I built a 10’ wide x 15’ long x 3’ high concrete cavity around where the water was coming up from the ground and snaked a 4” perforated PVC pipe throughout the cavity. Then I attached a 20’ solid 4” pipe to the end of the perforated pipe. Then I topped the concrete box with a solid piece of concrete from an old driveway and covered everything up except about 2’ of the end of the solid pipe. At the end of the solid pipe, I put an upward 45 and attached another section of 4" pipe about 3’ long. This puts the end of that pipe about 2’ above the ground where the spring is. So, the water in the concrete cavity is also about 2 feet deep (I assume). Water has continued to flow out of the pipe for 15 years at the exact same rate. 300 GPH, no matter what season, wet or drought. I now want to pull water to the house for drinking. I will use a jet pump since I’ll only be pulling at a height of maybe 10’ and a distance of about 80’. I will shove the suction pipe up the end of the 4” outflow pipe about 20’ or so. This should put the foot valve (if I use one) about where the perforated pipe is. It will be in a horizontal position, not the typical vertical, but I think it will work since the head will be about 10’ above the foot valve. I plan to put the pump in my garage along with a tank. I have a brand new Goulds J5SH pump. I'm brand new to this forum and brand new to wells. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  9. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Lets say that the water above the intake is 1 ft. That gives you 15 x 3 x 1 cubic ft, or 45 cubic ft of water that you can draw on. That is 337 gallons. Does that sound right? If so, there is no reason you could not pull that out a 7 or 10 gpm. Not continually. But for normal household use, you would not need to throttle the use.

    I did not quite follow the description where you said "snaked". Could you put a 1/2 HP submersible 10 gpm pump in there horizontally? You would put the pipe into a flow inducer sleeve which would ensure cooling flow around the motor. While you would have to run wires, you would have a much quieter efficient pump that does not need priming. No worry about vacuum leaks.
     
  10. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    It’s not a submersible pump. It’s a shallow well pump that will be in my garage next to the tank. “Snaked” simply means I ran pipe in a zig zag fashion through the box. And I agree, there should be plenty of water in the box to supply the house. I’m playing it safe. And I’m throttling it back for two reasons. One, to play it safe and never pump it dry, and Two, to make sure the pump runs a minimum of one minute.
     
  11. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Like Reach says, a submersible would be better. Priming and keeping 80' of horizontal pipe primed is a problem with a jet pump, not with a submersible. But you can make it work. Yes you need a foot valve. You will not be able to prime the pump without one. Then you need to make sure there are no high spots in the suction line to trap air. The suction line needs a gradual increase in height until it gets to the pump. The pump needs to be the high spot in the suction line. Then again like Reach says, you may need more than 5 GPM for short peak demands, which your pump and well can supply if it is not throttled to 5 GPM with a Dole valve.

    A jet pump running a minute to fill the tank is not important. What is important is that the pump does not cycle on/off continuously while you are using water, which is what a CSV keeps from happening. The CSV is an automatically adjusting restricting valve. It restricts the pump to the amount being used. When taking a 3 GPM shower, the CSV turns the pump into a 3 GPM pump. But when you need 7-8 GPM for a minute or so to supply peak demands, the CSV turns into a 7-8 GPM valve. The when you are finished using water, the CSV only fills the tank at 1 GPM, so you could get 1 minute of run time with a 4.5 gallon tank that only holds 1 gallon of water. A large pressure tank is just an additional demand to be supplied by the already low producing well. If you have taken a shower and used up most of the water in the well, the pump can run dry trying to put an additional 5 gallons is the pressure tank before the pump shuts off. With a CSV filling the tank at 1 GPM you won't have that problem. Once you understand how a CSV works it is a no brainer, especially for a low producing well. See this video.
     
  12. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Another important thing with a low producing well is to protect the pump from running dry. This is one of the only dry well protection devices that will work with a jet pump.
     
  13. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    That was a very informative video on CSV's. But can I still limit my pump to 5GPM with a CSV? And what would be the benefit of a CSV over a tank if my house use called for 8GPM? I need to limit flow to 5GPM with either method. Well, actually I could limit it much higher but then i would run the risk of pumping the well dry. I have a hot tub that takes 500 gallons that I drain and refill twice a year. This could possibly drain the well with a CSV with no limit to flow. In the video the pump was capable of 25 GPM but none of his examples used more than 24 GPM. So, in his examples he'd never have a problem. Seems like I could.
     
  14. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    You still don't quite understand. Your faucet it the limiter. When filling the tub just don't open the faucet more than 5 GPM, and the CSV will restrict the pump to produce the same 5 GPM as you are using. That way when you need 7-8 GPM for a few minutes, you will have 7-8 GPM when needed. The 5 GPM restricter would cause the water to just trickle out when you try to use 7-8 GPM. A Cycle Sensor is a much better way of protecting the pump from running dry compared to just restricting the flow to 5 GPM. And yes you can use a 5 GPM Dole valve WITH a CSV, but as long as you don't fill the tub with the faucet open all the way you don't need the restrictor.
     
  15. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why. Why does the thought that you have hundreds of gallons stored at any given time not make sense to you? Have I misunderstood?
     
  16. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    I'm the dumb one here, not either of you guys. I'm a retired engineer. This should be an easy concept for me. LOL.

    Ok, so now that I have a 20 gallon tank, should I use it and add a CSV? Or should I return the tank (Shipping back will probably kill me) and get a 4.5 gallon tank? Also, CSV valves are really expensive aren't they?

    Oh, incidentally REACH4, the underground box is 10' x 15' x 3'. So, even if it is just 1' deep in there, that is conservatively 1,122 gallons of water. So, maybe I'm being TOO cautious.

    Valveman, I also figured that the suction line has to always slope without any high spots. I can do that easily. And I do want to clarify that I am using a shallow well pump in the garage, not a submersible. It's what I have so I'd like to use it. A submersible would have to sit in the well sideways and I'm just not sure it would work like that. Also, just like you guys are saying, my common sense also tells me that there is no way to fill a suction pipe for prime unless you have a foot valve. So why do people say I don't need a foot valve?

    I sure wish one of you guys were closer. I'd buy the beer. I'm in South Carolina.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2018
  17. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/pump-control-valves/products/csv1a
    https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/residential-pump-control-valves/model-csv125

    That is OK. You want to make sure there is enough flow along the motor for cooling. A flow inducer sleeve can take care of that.
     
  18. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Yes we know you have a shallow well jet, as the pipe slope would not make any difference with a sub. And like Reach says, a sub will work fine laying on its side, just needs a shroud. The CSV1A will work fine with a 20 gallon tank, just larger than you needed. A 20 gallon tank only holds 5 gallons of water, which isn't large enough to prevent cycling without a CSV. The CSV1A is the one I would recommend, it cost $174.00. If you hadn't bought the 20 gallon tank the PK1A kit at $365.00 would have had the CSV1A, new tank, and everything else you needed.

    The problem with long suction lines on a jet pump is accumulating air. When sitting idle for a while, the air in the water will find a high spot in the line and accumulate. The next time the pump comes on it gets a slug of air and loses prime. Submersibles don't have a priming problem.
     
  19. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    I see. Another question I have. With a CSV, doesn’t the pump run continuously after the 5 gallon drawdown is gone from the tank? But you’re saying that’s better than cycling? Maybe I’ll look into returning this tank. But my other thought is to try it as planned, then add a CSV later if the cycling and pressure drop is an issue. It’s just my wife & I in the house so water useage isn’t high. I do like the space savings I’d have with a smaller tank but it’s not a huge deal. If I do continue as planned, do you guys think I need one of those Dole valves or will a ball valve work? I like the idea of being able to adjust it initially. Like let’s say I want 4.8 instead of 5. Or maybe 5.3.
     
  20. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    You need a valve anyway to shut off water to the house, and a ball valve is best.

    Do not put a ball valve between the pump and the pressure switch or pressure tank, because if that valve were to get shut for some reason, that would be bad. Don't worry that the pressure tank might fill at 10 gpm. You have way more storage than you need to worry about that. You have way more storage than you need to worry at all, presuming there is no broken pipe.

    Want cheap worry reduction? Consider a low pressure cut-off pressure switch (has a lever). It is important with one of those to not have too much precharge air pressure in the pressure tank. With a jet pump and one of those switches, I would start with the air precharge 5 psi below the cut-in pressure for the pump. If the low pressure cutoff happens, drop it a little more.

    If you get one of those, instruct other family members how to restore water after a power outage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  21. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    Sep 24, 2018
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    You say don't worry if my tank fills at 10 GPM but everything I read says a pump should run for no less than a minute. At 10 GPM, (which is fairly accurate with my pump if I don't restrict it), my pump will only run for 30 seconds with my tank drawdown of 5 gallons.
     
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