New shallow well - no water

[swamper8]

All,
Last year I put in a very simple 1 1/4" driven well point coupled to a 1HP pump. It didn't get down far, maybe 13'-15'. It ran two sprinklers fine, three ok, four not great. Overall I was happy with the first attempt. Pump was about 2' from the well head. Pretty large expansion tank. (I can't recall the size)

I went all in this year, drove a 4" PVC casing down around 15', then from there, I flushed out down to 25'. When I was flushing I was getting nice sand coming up. I drove a new well point down to exactly 25'. It's a 2" well point that immediately necks down to 1 1/4". I pushed the well out into the yard about 10' and moved the pump near my house, so I have about 20' of level 1 1/4" in addition to the 25' drop.

Unfortunately I'm not getting anything out of the well. I have no obvious suction leaks, though I may try the shaving foam test later. I have a "pre-check valve" ball valve that allows me to fill/prime the well from a hose. pump was filled and burped. Just not pulling anything up.

I was thinking the next step should be to drop a mini camera down my casing (or even my 1-1/4" pipe?) to confirm the well point is completely submerged, but other than that, I'm open to suggestions. Does anyone think the distance my pump is from the well head is an issue? Should the pump be as close to the well head as possible? I HATE to have to disassemble all this again. (nor do I really want the pump out in a hole in the yard)

Maybe 25' was too aggressive and I should have stopped at 20'? That ship has basically sailed, I'm not sure I could ever pull it back up.

Any help is appreciated.

*** EDIT ***
I dropped a small bore scope down and both between my 4" casing and 1 1/4" Gal and also inside my 1 1/4" Gal I have water up to 8' from the surface. So, I certainly don't expect a water supply issue. I guess I either have a suction leak or my pump is just too far away?

*** EDIT EDIT ***
I bit the bullet and moved the pump to within 6" of the well head. plumbed everything back up. It very slowly builds pressure as long as no water is being used. as soon as I even open a spray nozzle the pressure drops immediately. I've eliminated a suction leak above ground or any issue with the long pipe run.

I can only assume now I have some issue with my well point. Maybe I went too far down. Anyone have experience pulling one back up? Seems impossible but I'll give it a try tomorrow.

 

[Reach4]

Is the well point driven into the dirt, or is it hanging above the bottom of the well? I presume driven into the dirt below the casing.

Did you fill the pump with water?

You use the black hose to fill the well? It will not fill on its own?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Chucky_ott]

How many check valves did you put in? The one at the pump intake should not be there. Better to have it as close to the sand point as possible. A good spot would be where you have your union. And make sure it's in the right direction.

I have a similar setup as you but use a single run of polypipe instead of steel pipe. Less joints that way.

I can tell you that the jet pump is very susceptible to losing prime if you have a suction leak. And the entire suction pipe needs to be filled with water for it to work. Hence having the check valve at the sand point. That will keep the pipe filled under pressure all the time.

I have a tee and an open-ended ball valve on the discharge side of my pump. I use that to prime my pump at the start of the season. It takes a lot of water to fill the pump and suction pipe.

 

[Chucky_ott]

By the way, without the check valve at the sand point, whatever water you put in via that black hose will simply flow out of the sand point when you try to prime the pump.

 

[swamper8]

OK to answer some of these questions:

> Is the well point driven into the dirt, or is it hanging above the bottom of the well? I presume driven into the dirt below the casing.
The casing only goes down maybe 15' so there should be 10' of dirt/sand etc between the bottom of the 4" casing and the end of the well point. When I put it in, I had pre-assembled the 25' section of 1-1/4" w/ well point. I had used 2" PVC with cutting head and two hoses attached to the top and had basically washed the well out down to 25'. When I hit 25' it basically stopped dead like I hit a really hard layer of something. Figuring the end of the well point would sit on that and would be 3' above that, I was hoping there'd be perfect sandy/water between 22'-25' down.


Did you fill the pump with water?
> Yes I primed/burped the pump.

You use the black hose to fill the well? It will not fill on its own?
> The two black hoses. One was an outlet for testing output. One was what I used for priming between the well point and the check valve. It can be shut off with a blade valve. I just wanted to give it the best chance on initial test.

> How many check valves did you put in? The one at the pump intake should not be there. Better to have it as close to the sand point as possible.
Just one check valve and it's installed in the right direction. Now see image below, this was my last ditch test as light was dwindling last night. It was just a quick test, the pump is within 2' of the well head, check valve very close as well. This made zero improvement. I opened that blade valve and filled between the sand point and the inlet of the check valve, then filled the pump via the outlet hose. basically nothing. It would build a tiny amount of pressure but lose it immediately if I cracked the outlet. It couldn't even fill the expansion tank. I even ran the pump with the fill connection open and then slowly closed it, just to make sure all the piping was filled with water.


Today I guess I'm going to try pulling the pipe up maybe five feet. I guess thinking back to when I was flushing out the hole, toward the end I started getting into this really find/gray silt. I wonder if my well point is clogged. Can a well point be flushed out "backwards" or pushing water down to the well point and into the ground?

 

[Valveman]

Since your old well was only 13'-15' deep and ran two sprinklers, that is how deep the water is. Driving any deeper is probably not a good idea. Driving a point inside a cased starter hole is also not a good idea. The point needs enough earth above the screen to seal off or it will suck air from there.

If one point at 15' ran 2 sprinklers, maybe two points spaced out will run 4 sprinklers. As was said, it is best to have the check valve close to the point(s). Even better if it is in the vertical position before the elbow. Then the shorter the pipe to the pump the better, but 25' should not be a problem. However, suction pipe should have a gradual slop up to the pump, so the air ends up at the pump. Also, unions are notorious for causing a suction leak.

Sorry. I can tell how hard you worked casing that well and running that galvanized pipe. It looks really good. But when it doesn't work you have to change things.

 

[swamper8]

ok thanks for that feedback. I suspect you're right. I guess I went overkill here because I remember how hard it was to drive my first well point. I just barely got it to the 14' foot range after probably hundreds of sledge hammer blows. It seemed 1/4" per blow at best. I had actually only intended to do like a <8' starter case here but it kept going down so I figured why not. I didn't understand the principle of the earth above it.

Anyway, I managed to flush the well and yanked 25' of pipe and point out. The point was super clean, perhaps because of the flush or maybe there was just no problem down there. I hate to give up on this one quite yet so I'm thinking I will drop the point with some 1 1/4" PVC to around 20' and try one last time. MAYBE I had a suction leak in my 25' drop.

**Do you think I should fill the case up with some sand after I do this?**

Even if I can get something out of this one, like you said, I can connect along with my first well and maybe that will suffice.
My neighbor two doors down has a shallow well too. similar pump/smaller tank but he can run 6 heads all day long.

The position of the one way valve and unions were supposed to be forward thinking for future servicing but probably just made things worse.

 

[Bannerman]

Although steel pipe will rust away after time, the black iron 45° elbows will rust away far more rapidly than the galvanized steel pipe and fittings.

 

[WorthFlorida]

For years on this forum everyone seems to think they need a pressure tank for irrigation only setups. With water less than 25 feet an irrigation pump will work and a pressure tank is not needed.

With a jet pump about 40% of the pumped water is returned to the jet to create the suction needed. A pressure tank adds more work for the pump to pressure the tank and irrigation system.

Water level. You need to measure the hydro static level and 15-20 feet below grade is ideal as the maximum dept. As Valveman suggests you may need a second point. You can run the pump with the pressure tank valve closed, if the is one, and see if there is any improvement.

A jet pump and tank as you have would be needed if you were to use a well for domestic water. Have to say you did do a nice clean setup.

 

[Valveman]

ok thanks for that feedback. I suspect you're right. I guess I went overkill here because I remember how hard it was to drive my first well point. I just barely got it to the 14' foot range after probably hundreds of sledge hammer blows. It seemed 1/4" per blow at best. I had actually only intended to do like a <8' starter case here but it kept going down so I figured why not. I didn't understand the principle of the earth above it.

Anyway, I managed to flush the well and yanked 25' of pipe and point out. The point was super clean, perhaps because of the flush or maybe there was just no problem down there. I hate to give up on this one quite yet so I'm thinking I will drop the point with some 1 1/4" PVC to around 20' and try one last time. MAYBE I had a suction leak in my 25' drop.

**Do you think I should fill the case up with some sand after I do this?**

Even if I can get something out of this one, like you said, I can connect along with my first well and maybe that will suffice.
My neighbor two doors down has a shallow well too. similar pump/smaller tank but he can run 6 heads all day long.

The position of the one way valve and unions were supposed to be forward thinking for future servicing but probably just made things worse.

Filling with sand will not seal well enough to stop a suction leak from the well screen.