New pool wiring

[gregs]

Is it feed directly from the main panel? I was wondering about whether a second sub panel (1st is the garage sub) would be a code problem. Thanks

 

[Alectrician]

Mine comes from the main service panel.

Again, it's open to interpetation. I've seen it passed coming from an NM fed sub and I have heard of it failing because of the lack of a insulated ground back to the service.

I think the code says insulated to the service equipment which can be interpeted as the pool panel or the service panel.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[JWelectric]

Mine comes from the main service panel.

Again, it's open to interpetation. I've seen it passed coming from an NM fed sub and I have heard of it failing because of the lack of a insulated ground back to the service.

I think the code says insulated to the service equipment which can be interpeted as the pool panel or the service panel.

I agree that it will be all in the inspector. I will say that I wouldn't accept it due to the verbiage in (B) below
680.25 Feeders. (B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.

 

[Alectrician]

THAT's the section I was talking about.


Service Equipment - The necessary equipment, usually consisting of circuit breakers or switches and fuses and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors in a building, other structure (or an otherwise designated area) and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the electricity supply.

Sounds like anything past the first breaker/fuse is not part of the service equipment.

What is the 680.25A exception for existing feeders?

 

[Speedy Petey]

What is the 680.25A exception for existing feeders?

Just that, for feeders that are existing.

When the panel will be in a garage, shed or other detached structure we many times install a panel first, then do the pool equipment later to get around this "all conduit" requirement for the feeder. This way we can run NM inside the existing home or structure and conduit outside underground like any other detached sub-feed.

 

[JWelectric]

Once again please save yourself some grief by making a simple telephone call to ask the question.

Some areas look at 680.25 as pertaining to pools and the exception as pertaining to an existing feeder for a pool not an existing feeder to a remote panel that is now going to be used to supply a pool.

In other words if a pool or pool house panel was already fed with a cable it is allowed to remain even if upgrading the pool but a new pool installation is not allowed to be fed from an existing remote panel fed with a cable.

 

[gregs]

My plan is to draw things up and take it to the county with me when I apply for the permit. Hopefully I can find out if it will be a problem or not.

Now a question about the pool light conduit. I know about the conduit between the deck box and niche and the extra ground wire, does the connections for the pool light have to be made in that deck box? Or can I loop the cord thru it and back to another junction box where I would have a light switch? I bought a pool light with a 100' cord so it seems like a waste to chop it off short. I guess I could put the deck box closer to the area where the light switch would be so long as it meets the code for height and distance from water.

 

[JWelectric]

My plan is to draw things up and take it to the county with me when I apply for the permit. Hopefully I can find out if it will be a problem or not.

Now a question about the pool light conduit. I know about the conduit between the deck box and niche and the extra ground wire, does the connections for the pool light have to be made in that deck box? Or can I loop the cord thru it and back to another junction box where I would have a light switch? I bought a pool light with a 100' cord so it seems like a waste to chop it off short. I guess I could put the deck box closer to the area where the light switch would be so long as it meets the code for height and distance from water.

That would depend on the type of niche used for the luminary

 

[gregs]

I am not sure on the niche, but if it makes a difference I am not talking about the conduit going from the deck box to the niche but rather the conduit going back to the house.

 

[JWelectric]

I am not sure on the niche, but if it makes a difference I am not talking about the conduit going from the deck box to the niche but rather the conduit going back to the house.

Again the placement of the junction box for the light will depend on the niche that the light sits in.


Also remember the EGC can not be broke from the panel to the junction box from the light

 

[gregs]

It will be a PVC niche probably a Pentair niche connected with rigid pvc conduit. I am not sure if they refer to it as a wet or dry but it does use a rubber seal around the cord and ground wire.

 

[JWelectric]

I am not sure if they refer to it as a wet or dry but it does use a rubber seal around the cord and ground wire.

The question needs to know before an answer can be given

 

[frenchelectrican]

It will be a PVC niche probably a Pentair niche connected with rigid pvc conduit. I am not sure if they refer to it as a wet or dry but it does use a rubber seal around the cord and ground wire.

There is wet and dry verison of pool luminaire and you have to get the specifics from the manufacter to determed which one.

This part you can not make a second guess on this one.

Sorry if I am being rude in here but the NEC code on pool sections is very strict.

Merci,Marc

 

[gregs]

Not a problem, was waiting for Pentair to email me back. It will be a wet niche. Pentair does not even make a dry niche.

Thanks again for the help

 

[JWelectric]

Not a problem, was waiting for Pentair to email me back. It will be a wet niche. Pentair does not even make a dry niche.

Thanks again for the help

(B) Wet-Niche Luminaires.
(1) Forming Shells. Forming shells shall be installed for the mounting of all wet-niche underwater luminaires and shall be equipped with provisions for conduit entries. Metal parts of the luminaire and forming shell in contact with the pool water shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal. All forming shells used with nonmetallic conduit systems, other than those that are part of a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding, shall include provisions for terminating an 8 AWG copper conductor.

(2) Wiring Extending Directly to the Forming Shell. Conduit shall be installed from the forming shell to a junction box or other enclosure conforming to the requirements in 680.24. Conduit shall be rigid metal, intermediate metal, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic, or rigid nonmetallic.
(a) Metal Conduit. Metal conduit shall be approved and shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal.
(b) Nonmetallic Conduit. Where a nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8 AWG insulated solid or stranded copper bonding jumper shall be installed in this conduit unless a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding is used. The bonding jumper shall be terminated in the forming shell, junction box or transformer enclosure, or ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosure. The termination of the 8 AWG bonding jumper in the forming shell shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a listed potting compound to protect the connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water.

(3) Equipment Grounding Provisions for Cords. Wet-niche luminaires that are supplied by a flexible cord or cable shall have all exposed non–current-carrying metal parts grounded by an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor that is an integral part of the cord or cable. This grounding conductor shall be connected to a grounding terminal in the supply junction box, transformer enclosure, or other enclosure. The grounding conductor shall not be smaller than the supply conductors and not smaller than 16 AWG.

(4) Luminaire Grounding Terminations. The end of the flexible-cord jacket and the flexible-cord conductor terminations within a luminaire shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a suitable potting compound to prevent the entry of water into the luminaire through the cord or its conductors. In addition, the grounding connection within a luminaire shall be similarly treated to protect such connection from the deteriorating effect of pool water in the event of water entry into the luminaire.

(5) Luminaire Bonding. The luminaire shall be bonded to, and secured to, the forming shell by a positive locking device that ensures a low-resistance contact and requires a tool to remove the luminaire from the forming shell. Bonding shall not be required for luminaires that are listed for the application and have no non–current-carrying metal parts.

(6) Servicing. All wet-niche luminaires shall be removable from the water for inspection, relamping, or other maintenance. The forming shell location and length of cord in the forming shell shall permit personnel to place the removed luminaire on the deck or other dry location for such maintenance. The luminaire maintenance location shall be accessible without entering or going in the pool water.


680.24 Junction Boxes and Electrical Enclosures for Transformers or Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.

(A) Junction Boxes. A junction box connected to a conduit that extends directly to a forming shell or mounting bracket of a no-niche luminaire shall meet the requirements of this section.
(1) Construction. The junction box shall be listed as a swimming pool junction box and shall comply with the following conditions:
(1) Be equipped with threaded entries or hubs or a nonmetallic hub
(2) Be comprised of copper, brass, suitable plastic, or other approved corrosion-resistant material
(3) Be provided with electrical continuity between every connected metal conduit and the grounding terminals by means of copper, brass, or other approved corrosion-resistant metal that is integral with the box
(2) Installation. Where the luminaire operates over 15 volts, the junction box location shall comply with (A)(2)(a) and (A)(2)(b). Where the luminaire operates at 15 volts or less, the junction box location shall be permitted to comply with (A)(2)(c).
(a) Vertical Spacing. The junction box shall be located not less than 100 mm (4 in.), measured from the inside of the bottom of the box, above the ground level, or pool deck, or not less than 200 mm (8 in.) above the maximum pool water level, whichever provides the greater elevation.
(b) Horizontal Spacing. The junction box shall be located not less than 1.2 m (4 ft) from the inside wall of the pool, unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier.
(c) Flush Deck Box. If used on a lighting system operating at 15 volts or less, a flush deck box shall be permitted if both of the following apply:
(1) An approved potting compound is used to fill the box to prevent the entrance of moisture.
(2) The flush deck box is located not less than 1.2 m (4 ft) from the inside wall of the pool.

(B) Other Enclosures. An enclosure for a transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter, or a similar device connected to a conduit that extends directly to a forming shell or mounting bracket of a no-niche luminaire shall meet the requirements of this section.
(1) Construction. The enclosure shall be listed and labeled for the purpose and meet the following requirements:
(1) Equipped with threaded entries or hubs or a nonmetallic hub
(2) Comprised of copper, brass, suitable plastic, or other approved corrosion-resistant material
(3) Provided with an approved seal, such as duct seal at the conduit connection, that prevents circulation of air between the conduit and the enclosures
(4) Provided with electrical continuity between every connected metal conduit and the grounding terminals by means of copper, brass, or other approved corrosion-resistant metal that is integral with the box
(2) Installation.
(a) Vertical Spacing. The enclosure shall be located not less than 100 mm (4 in.), measured from the inside of the bottom of the box, above the ground level, or pool deck, or not less than 200 mm (8 in.) above the maximum pool water level, whichever provides the greater elevation.
(b) Horizontal Spacing. The enclosure shall be located not less than 1.2 m (4 ft) from the inside wall of the pool, unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier.

(C) Protection. Junction boxes and enclosures mounted above the grade of the finished walkway around the pool shall not be located in the walkway unless afforded additional protection, such as by location under diving boards, adjacent to fixed structures, and the like.

(D) Grounding Terminals. Junction boxes, transformer enclosures, and ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosures connected to a conduit that extends directly to a forming shell or mounting bracket of a no-niche luminaire shall be provided with a number of grounding terminals that shall be no fewer than one more than the number of conduit entries.

(E) Strain Relief. The termination of a flexible cord of an underwater luminaire within a junction box, transformer enclosure, ground-fault circuit interrupter, or other enclosure shall be provided with a strain relief.

(F) Grounding. The equipment grounding conductor terminals of a junction box, transformer enclosure, or other enclosure in the supply circuit to a wet-niche or no-niche luminaire and the field-wiring chamber of a dry-niche luminaire shall be connected to the equipment grounding terminal of the panelboard. This terminal shall be directly connected to the panelboard enclosure.