New "Garage House" DIY Water System - Questions

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Pr0t0c01

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Hello everyone, I've been a long time lurker of these forums. My wife and I decided to build a "garage house" last summer. My friend and I built every last part of it, to include the septic, well, electric service and electricals.. you name it. I even cut the trees, rented the equipment and we did the dirt work. Only thing I hired for was the pour and finish of the slab, but did the forms, rebar and foam.

So here we stand a little over a year of going into this, all out of pocket and I finally got the water running a second time after unhooking for way to long to do drywall/paint (have been busy) and even wired up and installed a new water heater and hooked up our washer/dryer all in one unit for the first time in 5 years. Things are going well, but I figured it couldn't hurt to share my system and ask for some input to get the best out of it.

Well: 41ft deep, 2" steel well casing, 1" 25-30ft line, water table at roughly 8-9ft
Pump: Gould J5S 1/2HP
Switches: 30/50, one square D the other came on J5S, don't recall brand.
Filters: 3 in line, GE large filters, 20 Micron, 5 Micron, Charcoal
Water Softner: Whirlpool 44k
Tank: Utilitech 36 Gal (Primed to 28 PSI)
Water Heater: AO Smith 50 gal Electric, 6yr (not premium model)
Expansion Tank: Utilitech 5 gal (primed to 51 PSI)

I did the entire place in 3/4 PEX, necking down to 1/2 close to fixtures like the sinks and washer hookups. I've been having an issue with pressure being really crappy as the tank gets lower. So I emptied the system out and noticed the tank was precharged to 20 PSI even though it was supposed to have been 25 from factory. I may have messed with this originally a year ago when I didn't fully understand the pressure game played in these systems. I bumped it up to 28 for the 30/50 switches. However my Square D on the tank (immediately at end of tree on tank), wouldn't cut in until about 24-25, cutoff was perfect at 50. The pump switch would close perfectly at 30 but wait for the tank switch. So it seems my differential is off a bit with the tank switch.

I adjusted the #2 by 1 and 3/4 turns which seem to bring cut in up to about 28. I was going to bring it to 30 as it should and then lower #1 in hopes of returning to a 20 PSI differential. This is logical, correct? I don't recall messing with this switch but maybe I had at some point or my friend who was originally hooking it up with me. How likely is it that these switches we're that out of whack originally? I guess someone at the store could have returned it after screwing with it or could it get out of whack?

Right now the tank switch is still calling for more pressure after the pump switch shuts off. Is this a serious issue to have the switch stay closed like that in the meantime. Obviously I'd like them to be synced.

How often should my pump cycle? We are catching up on clothes that we purposefully didn't bring to the laundrymat since the wife was excited to do it here and save money again. This has of course cycled it a lot, but I don't want to prematurely burn out my pump.

All of the cycling has let me see the amount of condensation these pipes can put off, cause floors to get wet which I'd like to avoid to not damage my walls, cause mold, ect. I've installed insulation foam (the good kind) around both hot and cold, but what can be done for the tank, pump and filter housings? They eventually start dripping. Have been running a dehumidifier too to try to minimize the issue.

Will 36gal for a pressure tank be enough? I bought it brand new from a friend who ended up not getting a house so no longer needed it. Instead of $230 for it, I paid $100 cash so it was hard to turn down. It was also the largest unit Lowe's had in stock at the time, they were out of them when I was offered it for $100. I see they carry 42 and 46 gal tanks though now. Drawdown on this unit is 11.2gal at 30-50. I'm seriously thinking my wife won't be happy once the shower gets installed until we up it to 40-60 though. This will drop us down to 9.7 gal. I wonder if it is worth it or of I should just buy a bigger tank before jumping to 40-60?

We only have 2 sinks (kitchen and bathroom), a shower/tub eventually and a washer/dryer combo which is HE rated via 110v. The entire place is a 28x32 garage, so total plumbing length is less than 40 ft tank to faucets.

Last question... Is there any real downside or negative to using a factory 30/50 switch and adjusting it to 40/60? Are these switches actually the same just adjusted from factory or are the internals somehow different?

Thanks for any and all advice and for all of the amazing posts on here that have helped me to plumbing in my sewer, waste water and well system. Looking forward to learning more.
 
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Valveman

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You have two pressure switches fighting each other. You only need one switch. I would use the one close to the tank and bypass the one that came on the pump/motor. Lifting from 10' that pump can only build 61 PSI, so I would try a 40/60 setting. Maybe 35/55 at the most, and yes all those switches are the same, it is just a matter of adjustment. The larger the tank the longer you will experience low pressure before the pump comes on. 35 will be way less pressure than 55, which happens just before the pump shuts off and the pressure starts dropping to 35 again. A constant 45 PSI and a smaller tank would deliver much stronger pressure to the house.

Here is a wiring diagram of how to bypass one of the switches without having to remove it. See the wiring diagram for "jet pump" under "testing the system".
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_psidekick_install.html
 

Pr0t0c01

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So my 36 Gal tank size is fine? I don't need the pump pressure switch functioning and will bypass it. I'll adjust the square D switch to about 35/55 so as not to stress the pump pushing near it's max.

Curious where the info about 10' on the J5S comes from, I couldn't find that information for Max PSI. Where I am, there is no shortage of water. Right down the road the water table (seasonal high) is right at 4ft. My well is 41ft but my pump line is 25 or 30 ft. This should be OK to have it that long, correct? The pump should just pull from the top of the line, so long as the well doesn't dry out or the water level doesn't siginifcantly reduce in the line?

I'm also attempting to prevent the pump from short cycling, how many times a day is fairly normal for a pump like this to need to kick on.

The diagram isn't 100% clear, or more likely I am misunderstanding. I see how to wire from wall to PS 1, but going into the pump PS to bypass, do I put my red/black on the two center terminals WITH the pumps 2 internal wires? If not, then I don't understand how the pump would be able to be signaled to turn on unless those terminals are shared (stacked).
 
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Valveman

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You only use the pressure switch on the motor as a junction box to connect the wires from PS1 to the motor wires. So yes the wires from PSI go on the same terminal as the wires coming from the motor. PS1 does all the work. The specifications for the J5S show lifting from 10' it can build a max of 61 PSI. It doesn't matter how long your tail pipe is, the pump is only lifting from the actual water level. And if the water level pulls down to 20', that pump can only make 57 PSI. Plus it can't lift anymore than about 24' no matter how long a tailpipe you have. A jet pump can withstand up to 300 cycles per day. But the fewer the cycles, the longer it will last.
 

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Thanks Valveman. I bypassed the pump switch and it now kicks in off the tank switch, which still needs adjusting. The cut in is somewhere in the neighborhood of 28-29 and the cut off is exactly 55. I noticed that it took it a good 45 second or so to climb from 50 to 55. Likely not worth it for 5 more PSI on this pump to close that differential and going to 35/55. I guess I'll try to get that diff back in spec to 30/50. Sound like a good plan?
 

LLigetfa

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Being slightly on the curve is not a bad thing just so long as you are not close to the deadhead pressure. It will actually reduce cycling.
 

Pr0t0c01

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I don't believe the water level is 20' down.... But if it were the deadhead would be 57 PSI like Valveman said? So 55 is fairly close to that. In not sure 40/60 would be a good setting on this pump?

Just wanting to maintain pressure, and not wear things out, Possibly reduce cycling.
 

Reach4

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So 55 is fairly close to that. In not sure 40/60 would be a good setting on this pump?
I am thinking maybe 32/52 with 28 or 29 psi of air precharge in the pressure tank.
 

Pr0t0c01

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So does the 2 PSI tank charge thing not apply as a hard and fast rule? I did see some info claim 2 on a deep well and 4 on a shallow well jet?

Currently 28, so if that works with me upping it to 32/52 then great. You don't want to know how I had to pump that thing up.....
 

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2 PSI below the start pressure is considered perfect. But I prefer to err on the low side as even 1 PSI too high will cause a problem. I usually say 5 PSI below cut in, as to allow for errors in the pressure gauges and ambient temperature changes.
 

Reach4

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If the precharge is low high, there will be, at least sometimes, a stutter (dip) in pressure between when the pressure switch closes and the pump delivers the new water. There is not a further problem, unless you have a low-pressure-cutoff pressure switch (which usually has a lever on it).

If the precharge pressure air is too low, it is harder on the diaphragm, because the diaphragm has to stretch more at high pressure.

Submersible pumps deliver water faster than jet pumps.
 
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LLigetfa

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If the precharge is low, there will at least sometimes be a stutter (dip) in pressure between when the pressure switch closes and the pump delivers the new water.
Actually it is the other way around. It is too high a precharge that causes that. A jet pump uses pressure to make more pressure hence why the lower precharge is prescribed for them.
 

Pr0t0c01

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So my original switch was way out of whack. I couldn't get the range to move to even 30/50 as the cut off was way to high. When adjusting it to lower it got to the point where the spring on #1 was no longer holding tension.

I opted to replace the pressure switch with a new 40/60 and lowered the range to what should be 35/55... The factory differential on these things are no where near what they claim. It was off by 4 or so PSI on cut off. I now have it adjusted to cut in exactly at 35 and had to adjust the #1 screw on this too to bring it to a cut off at 54, which works perfectly for me.

I've got a small new issue though. When it cuts in at 35, it sounds like the switch is closing to call for water but immediately turning back off and right back on, all in a fraction of a second, sort of a stutter. Any idea why this would be? Sounds like it would be rough on the pump, similar to short cycling. I adjusted the precharge in the tank to 31 PSI which is 4 PSI lower than the pump cut in per Valveman's suggestion. This of course done with the tank at 0 PSI ball valve left open to make sure no extra pressure. Drained all air out of system afterwards. The old switch had the low pressure cut off switch, this one does not. Is that an issue considering no one seems to run out of water in wells in my area since we are right at the table pretty much? Worst case if the well we're dry, without the cut off, wouldn't the pump have a thermal shut down switch?

I can always take a video in case I'm not explaining it well enough.
 
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LLigetfa

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When it cuts in at 35, it sounds like the switch is closing to call for water but immediately turning back off and right back on, all in a fraction of a second, sort of a stutter.
Does the switch have a low pressure cutoff? If so then there is probably too much air in the bladder and the tank is empty when the cut-in pressure is reached. That causes the pressure to dive.

Of course what Cary wrote could also be the cause.
 

Reach4

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I suggest that with the pump off because the pressure is normal, maybe between 40 and 50 PSI on the water pressure gauge, check the air pressure. The purpose of that would be to compare the calibration of your air pressure gauge vs your water pressure gauge. Normally the two pressures will be very close -- under 1 PSI difference.

Never add or remove air with the water pressurized. This is just a simple test for the special purpose of comparing gauges.
 

Pr0t0c01

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The new switch doesn't have a low pressure cut off switch, the old one did. The switch is the same spot it was before, just swapped out. It is at the end of the brass T coming off of the tank, it can't get any closer.

Here is the order of my water system.

Foot valve
Draw line (don't know proper name for it)
Pump
Directly to T that goes to tank, nothing in between.
3 Whirlpool filters, 20 Micron for sediment, 5 Micron, Charcoal.
Whirlpool 44k Softner
Line going to cold line and water heater with 1 check valve before the T that serves both.

I'll check the pressure on the tank as you suggested Reach. I sort of have a feeling it is precharge related. I made it 4 PSI lower than cut in whereas it was always 2 PSI before. It was suggested in a previous post it was better off a bit lower for a jet pump than the recommended 2 PSI difference.

Do I need or want the low cut off pressure switch or am I fine with this switch without on a well. I should point out, this is a 2" well, 41" deep and the water table is at 8-9 foot approx.
 
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Valveman

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Maybe just put a pulsation dampener in the nipple to the pressure switch. I only do this when I can figure out what is causing the pressure switch to bounce, and this is apparently one of those times. :confused:
 

Reach4

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Expansion Tank: Utilitech 5 gal (primed to 51 PSI)
How often should my pump cycle?
A pressure tank will have a "drawdown of about 25% of the nominal size, or about 1.25 gallons for you. So every time you flush the toilet, or every other time you wash your hands, expect the pump to cycle. If you take a 2.5 gpm shower, expect the pump to cycle twice per minute, if you don't have a CSV or a bigger tank. Taking a bath would give fewer cycles because you would be drawing water at a rate closer to what the pump can produce.

If you went to a 44 gallon pressure tank, you would expect cycle about every 11 gallons. A 5 gallon pressure tank is unusually small.

Directly to T that goes to tank, nothing in between.
3 Whirlpool filters, 20 Micron for sediment, 5 Micron, Charcoal.
There would usually be a valve to shut off water to the rest of the house. between those two.
convertible-jetpump1.jpg
 
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