New boiler and water heater

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callums

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Hi all, I'm planning a major renovation of a 1950's 2400 sq ft house on two levels. It's in zone 4C near the ocean so it rarely gets much below freezing. I'm going to add a fair bit of insulation along with triple pane windows and air sealing. I've had a consultant run the heat loss calculations and it's come back with about 5000 Watts.
Both the boiler and DHW are currently electric and I was planning on installing a gas combi boiler to replace them. Now I think I'd be hard pressed to find one that would be able to got that low and still provide enough hot water for 2-4 people. Would it be better to use a boiler and indirect tank?
 

Dana

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Hi all, I'm planning a major renovation of a 1950's 2400 sq ft house on two levels. It's in zone 4C near the ocean so it rarely gets much below freezing. I'm going to add a fair bit of insulation along with triple pane windows and air sealing. I've had a consultant run the heat loss calculations and it's come back with about 5000 Watts.
Both the boiler and DHW are currently electric and I was planning on installing a gas combi boiler to replace them. Now I think I'd be hard pressed to find one that would be able to got that low and still provide enough hot water for 2-4 people. Would it be better to use a boiler and indirect tank?


Your situation is typical, and part of why tankless combi heaters are a poor fit for almost all normal homes. Homes that work well with tankless combis have larger than average heat loads and low to moderate hot water needs (say a 1 bath 3500' uninsulated home with single pane windows.) It also needs enough total radiation on each zone to not short cycle, a very common problem with retrofit installations.

Your heat load is comfortably within range of a number of 1.5 ton modulating ducted heat pumps (eg Fujitsu's -18RLFCD or Midea's 40MBDQ18), that would be comparable in operating cost to natural gas in most local markets. Any model that can modulate under half your design heat load, or about 2500 watts (~8500 BTU/hr) at moderate outdoor temps would be ideal, since it would run pretty much constantly at very quiet & low air flow, at EXTREMELY high efficiency. An electric heat pump water heater would also probably work, assuming you don't have huge spa-tubs to fill.

Alternatively, a modulating Dettson Chinook C30 M-S gas furnace (with 3" round ducts, pretty easy to retrofit) can modulate down to 11,545 BTU/hr (= ~3400 WATTS), low enough to have a high enough duty cycle for comfort during cooler days.
 

callums

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Hi Dana, I'd like to stick with hydronic heat if I can. So I assume that if I could find just a boiler that could meet the low end I'd be ok. Maybe something like a Navien NHB 150?
Thanks
 

Dana

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Hi Dana, I'd like to stick with hydronic heat if I can. So I assume that if I could find just a boiler that could meet the low end I'd be ok. Maybe something like a Navien NHB 150?
Thanks

Even the NHB 150's minimum modulation is pretty high at 10,000 BTU/hr-in/ 9500 BTU/hr (~2800 watts) out it's minimum fire is still over half your design load, and thus way overkill for your application. (Or did you mean the NCB 150?) It would still need an indirect water heater to run the domestic hot water end. The NHB-80 would be a better choice with a min-fire output of about 7600 BTU/hr (~2230 watts). The NHB boilers all use moderately high pumping head water-tube heat exchangers and must be plumbed primary/secondary in most applications.

A low pumping head water tube heat exchanger boiler of similar firing range (eg HTP's UFT-080) would be much easier to deal with from a system design perspective. (It's also sold as the Westinghouse WBRUNG-080- same boiler under the paint, different marketing & warranty chain. ) That series has the same low-end firing range of the NHB-80, but can almost always be pumped direct, and has a built-in second output port & controls to support an indirect. Unlike the NHB there is some amount of thermal mass in the heat exhanger, making it less prone to short-cycling than the NHB when low thermal mass radiation is used. But you still need to at least do the napkin math on the radiation. (The more idiot-proof they make something the more creative the idiots become. ) It's fairly DIYable for those capable of both the math & plumbing.

An all electric alternative that works very well in your climate the modulating 2 ton Chiltrix CX34 reversible air-to-water chiller works pretty well when using low-temp radiation, and can throttle back to about 4-5 kw, and could handle the domestic hot water end too. As with boilers, you may need to add some thermal mass in the form of a buffer tank to keep it from short cycling, depending on your radiation amount & type.
 
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