New American Standard Optum Vormax toilet???

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Cameron Fields

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The videos comparing dual cyclone to vormax are a little misleading because they stop before the Toto has a chance completely to refill. Vormax appears to have no refill tube, like a wall-tank model, so there are two pulses of water from the flush valve(s), the second one to refill the bowl, whereas the Toto refills conventionally through a refill hose, which takes longer. The video makes it seem like the Toto doesn't refill as much as the Vormax. It is interesting to see the differential in terms of volume of water across the poo. I suspect that if the poo were positioned differently, i.e. up near the top of the back where spatter most occurs, the Toto would do better because it has its extra jet right there. I also wonder whether the Vormax would evacuate pee as completely, or whether there is mixing between flushes. Plainly, the Toto in the video devotes a higher percentage of the flush water to operate the siphon jet than does the Vormax; query whether these means that the Toto has a greater ability to evacuate waste than the Vormax. Hmmmm....
The Vormax does have a refill tube on the left valve.
 

thunderbirdmaint

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Pretty much the double cyclone system but with one jet only. Interesting to see how it performs...
Junk... If you want a toilet that won't clog or break down, get a Toto. The standard, Drake is the best. Toto offers cheaper options *coughs* Carusoe, Rowan *coughs* but they're cheaper for a reason.
 

WJcandee

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Junk... If you want a toilet that won't clog or break down, get a Toto. The standard, Drake is the best. Toto offers cheaper options *coughs* Carusoe, Rowan *coughs* but they're cheaper for a reason.

Yeah, I think the Carusoe and Rowan are on the way out, at least they should be.

The Entrada is sold at a price point below the Original Drake and I think will probably replace it in the future. The Entrada is well-made, has a 1000g MAP rating, and seems to be getting good reviews from Terry's customers. Most come with a Korky 528 and the new Korky/Toto 3" flapper. It should be a big-seller.
 

SamC

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Would some of you proud owners of the Vormax have a look in the tank when you flush it and see if in fact one flapper gets opened ahead of the other, one closes ahead of the other, and which is which?
 

Jim Dillard

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I purchased the elongated bowl AS Optum Vormax for $288-28.80 = $259.20 (my 10% military discount) at our local HD and installed it last weekend. After reading the recent Consumer Reports #1 rating on the AS Champion 4 Max, we fully intended to buy that. However, we saw the Optum Vormax and read the many 100% positive HD reviews on it. Given the similar flush mechanism, we decided to take a chance. I had previously detested water-saver toilets because of all their issues. The new Optum Vormax replaced our 21-year old Kohler 3 GPF power-horse. Frankly, I had my reservations, however after three days of household use I'm sold on this thing. It actually works amazingly well, and even with the heaviest amount of TP and waste. And it cleans the bowl beautifully too.

I've found a few things interesting on it. First, it doesn't completely drain the tank with each flush. At first I thought this was a malfunction given my comparison to old style, non-water saver toilets. However, after watching a few demo videos on youtube I realized that this action was normal. The second item is, I recommend when flushing that you hold the handle down for a split-second, barely a pause, before releasing it. Doing so seems to provide the maximum "jet" of water before the two flappers close.

It's also quite nice looking...substantial build and very nice finish inside and out. Much nicer looking than the Champion 4 Max. The soft-close seat works well too and is not at all uncomfortable for morning reading. I'm just sayin'. The plastic tool AS provides to attach the tank to the bowl is utterly worthless so I used my deep socket instead, and carefully tightened the three bolts to make "china-to-china contact" as AS stipulates in their instructions to avoid a leak.

Is it a TOTO? No. But it works beautifully, looks quite nice and costs a whole lot less. With a 10-year warranty to boot. So I'm good with it. And no, I'm not some AS company shill posting positive reviews...I'm an airline pilot. Given our positive experience with this thing, I'm going to replace our two remaining old-style toilets with the Optum Vormax.
 

Plumbs Away

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I purchased the elongated bowl AS Optum Vormax for $288-28.80 = $259.20 (my 10% military discount) at our local HD and installed it last weekend. After reading the recent Consumer Reports #1 rating on the AS Champion 4 Max, we fully intended to buy that. However, we saw the Optum Vormax and read the many 100% positive HD reviews on it. Given the similar flush mechanism, we decided to take a chance. I had previously detested water-saver toilets because of all their issues. The new Optum Vormax replaced our 21-year old Kohler 3 GPF power-horse. Frankly, I had my reservations, however after three days of household use I'm sold on this thing. It actually works amazingly well, and even with the heaviest amount of TP and waste. And it cleans the bowl beautifully too.

I've found a few things interesting on it. First, it doesn't completely drain the tank with each flush. At first I thought this was a malfunction given my comparison to old style, non-water saver toilets. However, after watching a few demo videos on youtube I realized that this action was normal. The second item is, I recommend when flushing that you hold the handle down for a split-second, barely a pause, before releasing it. Doing so seems to provide the maximum "jet" of water before the two flappers close.

It's also quite nice looking...substantial build and very nice finish inside and out. Much nicer looking than the Champion 4 Max. The soft-close seat works well too and is not at all uncomfortable for morning reading. I'm just sayin'. The plastic tool AS provides to attach the tank to the bowl is utterly worthless so I used my deep socket instead, and carefully tightened the three bolts to make "china-to-china contact" as AS stipulates in their instructions to avoid a leak.

Is it a TOTO? No. But it works beautifully, looks quite nice and costs a whole lot less. With a 10-year warranty to boot. So I'm good with it. And no, I'm not some AS company shill posting positive reviews...I'm an airline pilot. Given our positive experience with this thing, I'm going to replace our two remaining old-style toilets with the Optum Vormax.
I've said over and over that no one is qualified to give a valid assessment of a product unless and until they've used the product in question. You can read every review and blog/bulletin board under the sun but the fact remains that no two situations are identical. In the case of toilets, it's not just a function of the toilet fixture itself. Personal usage habits and the sanitary drain network also play a major role. Certain posters will bash American Standard based on what they've read and that's all. I had the unmitigated audacity to express my preference for American Standard over Toto and I did so because I had personal experience with both and I get better service at a lower price with American Standard. Even my $99 AquaSource equals or exceeds the performance of the Drake and Ultramax I previously owned. That's not to say they're not good products. My particular experience with them left quite a bit to be desired.
 
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NoWorries

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Thanks to Terry Love's Website, after pouring through hundreds of posts and reviews, I finally bit the bullet and replaced 4 out of my 5 toilets as I was tired of them clogging every other week. I got 3 Toto Entradas and 1 American Standard Vormax. Just installed them yesterday. So far all of them work beautifully. I will post a review after a few weeks. The first flush in the American Standard is a bit slow and you see some bubbles in the tank, but after 2 or 3 flushes, things worked just fine with the Vormax. The Totos had no issues right from the first flush.
I considered Drake ii as well, but it was hard for me to justify 400 bucks when the Entrada is very similar to it, at half the price.

In terms of looks, I feel the Entrada looks a little better than the Drake and the American Standard Vormax looks a little better than the Entrada. The American Standard has 2 flappers and a float attached to each flapper (not sure what purpose these floats are for). Some folks have complained about one of the floats getting in the way of a stopper while closing. But mine seem to work just fine. It would be interesting to see how long it holds. I still need to replace my 5th toilet. I will wait a few weeks to see how these perform before I get the 5th one.

So far I am a happy camper with the Toto Entradas and the AS Optum Vormax. The Vormax has so many positive reviews on Home Depot Website, and looked so beautiful that I just had to try it out.
 
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cantbuymelove

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Installed two AS Optum Vormax yesterday, $315 each including tax, and so far two both soft-close hinges were leaking sticky fluid and not working. Straight outta the box from Home Depot; what gives? Does the altitude here (3500 feet) somehow cause the fluid to leak, as the seat is packed vertically in the box which forces the fluid down to one end only and it flows out? Both seat hinges had the sticky fluid leaking out at one end only...Called AS and they said they will send me new seats.
 

cantbuymelove

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The two floats so close together is a potentially serious problem- one chain got hooked on the other float and the water was running.... had we not been home it could have been disastrous. That happened a couple hours after it was installed.
 

WJcandee

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Sorry to hear about your troubles. When you get the kinks out, they should work fine, but it looks like AS's quality control still has a way to go.

AS was bought by the owner of INAX, which is Toto's big competitor in Japan. INAX had tried to penetrate the US market on its own, and realized what a challenge it would be. So, instead, they bought AS, and should bring Japanese quality and technology to the AS line, while continuing to use its established distribution channels, like HD. So, this AS/INAX version of the Toto Double-Cyclone, with some added bells and whistles (i.e. the unnecessary two flappers), is an example. It's a step up for AS, but getting to the point that quality and reliability match that of Toto (or the AS of decades ago) is going to take some time. Toto has a big manufacturing operation here in the US, and they have been at it for some time now, and just plain have the whole thing down now, from design to manufacturing to quality control to customer service. What they don't have is a significant big box sales channel, although you can order some Toto models from HD for delivery to the store or your home (at completely-bizarre prices: they almost match the big internet retailers on some models, and charge crazy-high prices on others, and don't offer the whole line).

PS Beautiful doggies.

PPS If one flapper sticks open, all that's going to happen is that water is going to run through the bowl and down the drain. Your water bill would eventually take a hit, but unless the bowl was clogged when you flushed, it wouldn't overflow.
 
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WJcandee

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As of Nov 12, 2014, the Home Depot site shows 33 glowing reviews for the American Standard Optum VorMax model. However, after closer inspection, all the reviews appear suspiciously similar in writing style and seem like an AS promotional campaign.

Yeah, I just looked. These are "Seeds Program Reviews", and identified as such. Basically, HD and the manufacturer give you the product in return for writing an "honest review". They are not precluded from giving you product information, which is usually what people use as "talking points". Not surprisingly, most of these are glowing reviews. People like free stuff, and usually return the favor. But even if one were trying to be completely-honest, the reality is that one tends to be more positive about something when you're not questioning and doubting yourself as to whether this thing was really worth $300. Those emotions -- questioning one's choice -- aren't going to be present and so the review isn't going to subject the product to the same level of scrutiny that a normal one would. Most people aren't inspired to write reviews unless they are either (a) happy and amazed and want to share their joy or (b) extremely pissed off and want to warn others. That's why the histogram of reviews usually skews either towards 1 or towards 5. There will be "inliers", but they are usually fewer on most products.
 

cantbuymelove

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Sorry to hear about your troubles. When you get the kinks out, they should work fine, but it looks like AS's quality control still has a way to go.

AS was bought by the owner of INAX, which is Toto's big competitor in Japan. INAX had tried to penetrate the US market on its own, and realized what a challenge it would be. So, instead, they bought AS, and should bring Japanese quality and technology to the AS line, while continuing to use its established distribution channels, like HD. So, this AS/INAX version of the Toto Double-Cyclone, with some added bells and whistles (i.e. the unnecessary two flappers), is an example. It's a step up for AS, but getting to the point that quality and reliability match that of Toto (or the AS of decades ago) is going to take some time. Toto has a big manufacturing operation here in the US, and they have been at it for some time now, and just plain have the whole thing down now, from design to manufacturing to quality control to customer service. What they don't have is a significant big box sales channel, although you can order some Toto models from HD for delivery to the store or your home (at completely-bizarre prices: they almost match the big internet retailers on some models, and charge crazy-high prices on others, and don't offer the whole line).

PS Beautiful doggies.

PPS If one flapper sticks open, all that's going to happen is that water is going to run through the bowl and down the drain. Your water bill would eventually take a hit, but unless the bowl was clogged when you flushed, it wouldn't overflow.

**Thanks for your reply, but surely you are downplaying the problems- do you have any idea how much water a running toilet can use, and the cost of that water? It is a HUGE deal in these times of drought nationwide! I didn't think the toilet TANK would overflow... I also failed to mention that the customer service rep I spoke with regarding the TWO DEFECTIVE TOILET SEATS was rude and dismissive, which I wisely chose to ignore, because ultimately she asked her supervisor ("I will need to put you on hold for a couple minutes...") if fluid leakage from the soft-close hinge is a reality, and she found out it is. Initially she told me that there is NOTHING in the hinge, but in the end she asked her supervisor what the fluid is, and she was told it is a "proprietary" fluid that is secret. I suspect the hinges are made in China (see toilet hydraulic hinges) and therefore the gooey fluid could be just about anything, right?
 
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WJcandee

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surely you are downplaying the problems

I guess this is what I get for trying to be fair and balanced. Here's what I think: you bought them, and you bought two. If you had come on here first, I would have told you that they were highly-unlikely to work better than the Toto Drake II (or whatever Toto) they were ripping off. I would have told you that I thought the flush system was unnecessarily-gimmicky and basically idiotic, and that anyone who would buy this over the similar Toto was asking for trouble now and down the line. But some people have bought them. Some people have liked them. And personal preference plays a lot into buying decisions. I also would have told you that Toto has legendary customer service -- happy nice people in Atlanta that try to make the customers happy. And since their products are intelligently-designed, they don't have to listen to as many unhappy people every day. But why would I say this when you already had these toilets installed? I do think they can be made to work reliably-ish, and I assume that is what you are going to try to do. Was I supposed to tell you that you were stupid for buying them? I don't think so: I think there are better choices, but I certainly don't think these things are total crap.

do you have any idea how much water a running toilet can use, and the cost of that water

Yes.

I didn't think the toilet TANK would overflow

I never said it would. I never said you thought it would. I said that if the flapper stuck open, the water would run down the drain and there would be no overflow. Water is ridiculously-cheap in the US, so you might be out $5 at the absolute max if it ran full force for 24 hours.

the customer service rep I spoke with regarding the TWO DEFECTIVE TOILET SEATS was rude and dismissive

That sucks. Wouldn't have happened at Toto. The Toto (and Korky, by the way if you ever need replacement plumbing parts) reps have very good product knowledge and also work their asses off to be helpful. (Korky once actually put me on the line with the engineer that designed the thing I was asking about when the C/S rep couldn't answer the technical question. And the guy was happy to talk for a good five minutes.)

I suspect the hinges are made in China (toilet hydraulic hinges) and therefore the gooey fluid could be just about anything, right?

Who knows. I think it's unlikely to be some kind of incredibly-hazardous substance. AS has done some stupid things recently, but physically-harming customers isn't likely to be one of them.
 
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cantbuymelove

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I guess this is what I get for trying to be fair and balanced. Here's what I think: you bought them, and you bought two. If you had come on here first, I would have told you that they were highly-unlikely to work better than the Toto Drake II (or whatever Toto) they were ripping off. I would have told you that I thought the flush system was unnecessarily-gimmicky and basically idiotic, and that anyone who would buy this over the similar Toto was asking for trouble now and down the line. But some people have bought them. Some people have liked them. And personal preference plays a lot into buying decisions. I also would have told you that Toto has legendary customer service -- happy nice people in Atlanta that try to make the customers happy. And since their products are intelligently-designed, they don't have to listen to as many unhappy people every day. But why would I say this when you already had these toilets installed? I do think they can be made to work reliably-ish, and I assume that is what you are going to try to do. Was I supposed to tell you that you were stupid for buying them? I don't think so: I think there are better choices, but I certainly don't think these things are total crap.



Yes.



I never said it would. I never said you thought it would. I said that if the flapper stuck open, the water would run down the drain and there would be no overflow. Water is ridiculously-cheap in the US, so you might be out $5 at the absolute max if it ran full force for 24 hours.



That sucks. Wouldn't have happened at Toto. The Toto (and Korky, by the way if you ever need replacement plumbing parts) reps have very good product knowledge and also work their asses off to be helpful. (Korky once actually put me on the line with the engineer that designed the thing I was asking about when the C/S rep couldn't answer the technical question. And the guy was happy to talk for a good five minutes.)



Who knows. I think it's unlikely to be some kind of incredibly-hazardous substance. AS has done some stupid things recently, but physically-harming customers isn't likely to be one of them.
Thank you for all the thoughtful information. I live in a backwater of the US- namely Arizona- and in the central area of this backwater (and not even in Prescott, which would be somewhat equivalent to Phoenix) and because of this fact my options are very limited. The Home Depot is 50 miles round trip from my house, and that is the closest, and only, place to buy toilets in this desolate rural area. I just looked up the Toto Drake II- $569!! are you kidding? I am a poor, uneducated retired person who is struggling to make sense of the "existential gridlock" I am in- my first choice would be Toto if I could afford it.
 

cantbuymelove

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I do sincerely appreciate the tips on how to make these AS reliably-ish. With 13% tax, those Toto's would have come to close to $650, and they don't have them at this Home Depot; the closest store to get Toto in this county is Lowe's in Prescott, which is over 100 miles round trip. yeah, nice looking dogs...I loved them, but have neither one now as the desert ate them.
 

Reach4

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The Home Depot is 50 miles round trip from my house, and that is the closest, and only, place to buy toilets in this desolate rural area. I just looked up the Toto Drake II- $569!! are you kidding?


I don't think so. Click Inbox. 13 percent tax??? Are you talking about Prescott, Ontario, or what???

I like the Bemis Slow Close Lift-Off Never Loosens seats for your new toilet.
 
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cantbuymelove

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I don't think so. Click Inbox. 13 percent tax??? Are you talking about Prescott, Ontario, or what???

I like the Bemis Slow Close Lift-Off Never Loosens seats for your new toilet.
It's a well-kept secret that Arizona has the second highest AVERAGE sales tax in the country; 10.35% in Prescott, 10% in Cottonwood, and in 2012: "In Tuba City, a $1 purchase comes with a 13.725-cent sales tax bill: 6.6 percent for the state, 1.125 percent for Coconino County tax and another 6 percent tribal tax levied by the Navajo Nation's To'Nanees'Dizi local government." I will check on the cost of the Bemis seat you recommended in the (likely) event that two more AS seats fail- thanks for that tip.
 

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I will check on the cost of the Bemis seat you recommended in the (likely) event that two more AS seats fail- thanks for that tip.
A likely event would be that if you buy a Toto toilet, it will not come with an included seat. So you can make an independent decision. Maybe your AS toilet will include a seat.

Did you click Inbox?


Do you have a reference for your 10.35% number? http://www.prescott-az.gov/services.../www.prescott-az.gov/services/finance/tax.php
 
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Jadnashua

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FWIW, most any plumbing supply store can order stuff that they don't carry from one of their distributors even if they themselves aren't officially a Toto dealer. Also, there's a big range in what people charge for the same thing, and you should be able to find most any Toto product for a lot less than suggested retail. If you look at Terry's store, you can get an idea of a fair price. We do not recommend you order it off the internet - it can work out, but the nature of the product - fragile, heavy, big, is that they tend to get broken by the carriers getting to your house. They fair well on a pallet, strapped to lots of them to the distributor, though, which is the safest way to get one.
 
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