Need to replace old cast iron WC closet bend combo

[Kickstart]

New member here...

I'm re-doing a small upstairs bathroom in our 1954 cape code. I was originally planning on using the existing drain lines, and just add in vent lines on the sink and bathtub. However, on closer inspection I noticed the closet bend (if that's the correct term) for the toilet has corroded through the bottom.

It's a combo bend, with two 1-1/2" threaded drain lines entering perpendicular to the run (from the bathtub and the sink). I assume this type of set-up is no longer to code, and therefor a similar PVC replacement option doesn't exist.

Any thoughts on the best way to replace this? I would like to keep the 1-1/2 drain line from the bathtub (the one closer to the flange), but could move the sink drain line. I would also like to keep drilling holes in the joists to a minimum (but clearly, there will be a couple of new holes needed.)

Images attached.

I really appreciate the help.

- Chris

 

[Kickstart]

So... doing some more research (thanks info I found on this site) - looking at the Berk Polk tips
http://www.inspectcheck.net/client_..._plumbing_repairs/Plumbing Installation Guide

"The closet bend can be up to 6 foot long. No drains from other fixtures may enter into the closet bend. Only downstream of the vent."

I think I can run the bathtub/shower directly to the main soil line (it will be a 16' run though), but connecting the lavatory drain to the closet bend after a vent is going to be a tight fit. I'm not very familiar with the different type of fittings available... I assume there are a lot more options than what's at the local big box stores.

I figure I can go down to 3" for the toilet to help make things fit... anyonw see any issues with doing that?

Do they make a 3" or 4" long sweep 90 with a vent (2"?) coming off the side?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Do they make a 3" or 4" long sweep 90 with a vent (2"?) coming off the side?

Sort of, but these have more than you are asking for.

https://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/3...d-1-8-bend-with-left-side-inlet-p515-338.html https://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/3...-1-8-bend-with-right-side-inlet-p516-338.html I am not a plumber, and I don't know how they can be used. Maybe the unused port could become a cleanout?

https://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/3-x-2-dwv-pvc-1-4-bend-w-side-inlet-d301-338.html This is not a long sweep, and I don't know if a toilet needs a long sweep.

That old way of running drains to the closet bend sure seems like a good way to help get solids to wash along.

 

[Michael Young]

So... doing some more research (thanks info I found on this site) - looking at the Berk Polk tips
http://www.inspectcheck.net/client_link_i_had_an_inspection/i_need_plumbing_repairs/Plumbing Installation Guide

"The closet bend can be up to 6 foot long. No drains from other fixtures may enter into the closet bend. Only downstream of the vent."

I think I can run the bathtub/shower directly to the main soil line (it will be a 16' run though), but connecting the lavatory drain to the closet bend after a vent is going to be a tight fit. I'm not very familiar with the different type of fittings available... I assume there are a lot more options than what's at the local big box stores.

I figure I can go down to 3" for the toilet to help make things fit... anyonw see any issues with doing that?

Do they make a 3" or 4" long sweep 90 with a vent (2"?) coming off the side?

Damn. Looks like you got your hands on a "Cause grief for me" job. First, what are you doing with the house and how old are you? If you're flipping the house, JB WELD to the rescue. If you're fixing up your "forever-home" because you love the house and plan to die there (and you're 61 year old). Fuckit, JB Weld to the rescue. It'll hold longer than you're going to be alive anyways.

Obviously, cut it out and replace it is what you're going after. Take extremely good measurements. Lots of measurements with your tape measure in the picture. Here's the deal. Making that bend to install a new flange. Is there enough room to do that? The first thought that comes to mind is USE A COMBINATION LAYING ON ITS SIDE TO CATCH THE TOILET. And then off the top inless of the combination, I can catch those other two runs. What are those other two runs? http://www.homeservicestriad.com/

 

[Kickstart]

ah... ok.. thanks!... so I would need a right side one in my case. I wonder if they make that fitting with a 2" or 1-1/2" opening on the one side... I guess I can just use a couple of reducers. Assuming I can use this fitting in a horizontal orientation.

Does anyone know if it's ok to use this fitting in a horizontal orientation, for a toilet drain and using the 2" opening as a vent line?

Also, I might be able to use this same fitting for where the toilet trap arm/closet bend line drains into the main soil pipe, and use the 2" opening do drain the bathtub/shower into... can this fitting be used in the vertical orientation with the 2" opening being used like a sanitary tee for the tub/shower?

 

[Kickstart]

Ha!.... thanks Michael.

I want to tear the house down... wife's wants to live here forever... I'm 46.

The Joists are 2x10's, so I have 9.25 inches to play with (plus about 2" of subfloor/underlayment/leveling compound/tile that will go on top of that)... the existing run of the closet bend/toilet trap arm to the main soil pipe sanitary tee is 5 1/2'.
The 1-1/2" drain closest to the flange is the bathtub/shower drain. The other one if from the sink.

I'm think I can re-route the bathtub/shower drain to go straight to the main soil pipe (well, "straight" as in large 16' L around two sides of the bathroom).

When you say "USE A COMBINATION LAYING ON ITS SIDE TO CATCH THE TOILET", is that the same type of fitting Reach4 posted, or is it something else?

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

When you say "USE A COMBINATION LAYING ON ITS SIDE TO CATCH THE TOILET", is that the same type of fitting Reach4 posted, or is it something else?

He is talking about something like this I think:

 

[Michael Young]

Ha!.... thanks Michael.

I want to tear the house down... wife's wants to live here forever... I'm 46.

The Joists are 2x10's, so I have 9.25 inches to play with (plus about 2" of subfloor/underlayment/leveling compound/tile that will go on top of that)... the existing run of the closet bend/toilet trap arm to the main soil pipe sanitary tee is 5 1/2'.
The 1-1/2" drain closest to the flange is the bathtub/shower drain. The other one if from the sink.

I'm think I can re-route the bathtub/shower drain to go straight to the main soil pipe (well, "straight" as in large 16' L around two sides of the bathroom).

When you say "USE A COMBINATION LAYING ON ITS SIDE TO CATCH THE TOILET", is that the same type of fitting Reach4 posted, or is it something else?

Thanks!

Yes. the fitting Reach4 posted is exactly what I'd try to use. I would dry fit everything (right there on the floor of home depot) and make sure those measurements are going to work. but since your joists are 2x10, more than likely you can work with that. in the picture it looks a lot tighter

 

[Cacher_Chick]

We cannot see enough in your photo to determine the entire layout.

The joists are running 90 degrees to the closet bend, so without seeing anything else it looks like you can rotate the closet bend 90 degrees and from there run a new 3" line in between the joists. Bring a vent to the lav and from it a 2" drain tied into the 3" WC drain using a wye and 45. The WC will then be wet vented through the lav, and you will be able to tie in the tub or shower downstream of that connection.

 

[Kickstart]

Thanks Michael / Reach!

I'll post back here with my progress. I'll try to take a stab at it next weekend. In addition to making sure all the piping will fit, I've got to rent a soil pipe cutter and I know it's going to take me all weekend to get this done... or get the main soil pipe vent back through the roof at the very least.

- Chris

Oh.. about using the same fitting in the vertical. Can that 2" opening be used as a drain connector for the bathtub/shower? For the tub/shower drain my plan is to now run the drain directly to the main vertical soil pipe, but it will need to connect at approximately the same spot as the the toilet's sanitary tee connection. It would be ideal to use this combination instead of a sanitary tee, and just connect the tub/shower drain to the side of it.

 

[Kickstart]

Thanks Cacher_chick,

Attached are more pictures.

The new PVC vent line is from the 1-1/4" downstairs bathroom sink... I figured while I had the wall open I'd run a vent from the downstairs sink as I'm doing the vent for this upstairs bathroom sink. My original plan was to just replace the vertical cast iron vent you can see in the picture with PCV, and tie in the 1-1/2" vent line from the sinks.

Edit:... Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm also removing those copper supply lines in the notched joists... I'll be running the supply lines to the tub through the crawl space. Not sure why they did it this way when they built the house.

- Chris

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Its not clear on how you are thinking of tying in all of the fixtures. The tub and lav must be vented before the connection to the existing drain, and done right, could serve as a wet vent for the water closet, which would circumvent the problem of the way the existing drains are tied together.

 

[Michael Young]

Thanks Michael / Reach!

I'll post back here with my progress. I'll try to take a stab at it next weekend. In addition to making sure all the piping will fit, I've got to rent a soil pipe cutter and I know it's going to take me all weekend to get this done... or get the main soil pipe vent back through the roof at the very least.

- Chris

Oh.. about using the same fitting in the vertical. Can that 2" opening be used as a drain connector for the bathtub/shower? For the tub/shower drain my plan is to now run the drain directly to the main vertical soil pipe, but it will need to connect at approximately the same spot as the the toilet's sanitary tee connection. It would be ideal to use this combination instead of a sanitary tee, and just connect the tub/shower drain to the side of it.

Whoah!! Slow down there killer. RENT A SOIL PIPE CUTTER. Might not want to use a soil pipe cutter on 64 year old pipes. Dude, go buy yourself a cheapass $30 angle grinder and a blade to cut cast iron (or buy a nice one if you have lots of uses for it). You'll get a nice clean (controlled cut) and you won't send fractures down that 64 year old piece of already sketchy cast iron.

 

[Kickstart]

Its not clear on how you are thinking of tying in all of the fixtures. The tub and lav must be vented before the connection to the existing drain, and done right, could serve as a wet vent for the water closet, which would circumvent the problem of the way the existing drains are tied together.

For the tub/shower, I'm planning on running a dedicated vent through the roof right off the P-trap arm... so right up the same wall that has the shower valve (not in the picture)

For the lavatory, I'm planning on coming right off the top of it's sanitary tee - and then over to that new 1-1/2" tee on top of that PVC line in the wall from the sink below - that will then run over to the new main vent line through the roof (replace the existing cast iron).

OK... so you're saying I could use the toilet's vent as the lavatory's drain... i.e. wet vent.
Like this: http://www.jaytechplumbing.com/2013/01/wet-venting/

Hmm, for some reason I thought that wasn't allowed, but it appear's it's ok.
In this case I would need a long 90 3" with a 2" drain off the side.

 

[Kickstart]

Whoah!! Slow down there killer. RENT A SOIL PIPE CUTTER. Might not want to use a soil pipe cutter on 64 year old pipes. Dude, go buy yourself a cheapass $30 angle grinder and a blade to cut cast iron (or buy a nice one if you have lots of uses for it). You'll get a nice clean (controlled cut) and you won't send fractures down that 64 year old piece of already sketchy cast iron.

View attachment 44815

Thanks for the Pro tip!

Yeah, didn't think about broken cast iron pieces falling down the drain... that sounds like a nightmare situation. Soil pipe cutter looks super easy on the Youtubes!

I do have a cheap angle grinder in the garage... but there are some sections I'll need to cut that I won't be able to get enough access around it. I assume I should go really slow with tightening the soil pipe cutter, and move it back and forth a bunch while tightening it... hopefully that will minimize breakage... maybe?

 

[Cacher_Chick]

If you can find the room, you just need to put a 3x3x2 wye in just downstream of the 90.

 

[Kickstart]

For the tub/shower, I'm planning on running a dedicated vent through the roof right off the P-trap arm... so right up the same wall that has the shower valve (not in the picture)

For the lavatory, I'm planning on coming right off the top of it's sanitary tee - and then over to that new 1-1/2" tee on top of that PVC line in the wall from the sink below - that will then run over to the new main vent line through the roof (replace the existing cast iron).

OK... so you're saying I could use the toilet's vent as the lavatory's drain... i.e. wet vent.
Like this: http://www.jaytechplumbing.com/2013/01/wet-venting/

Hmm, for some reason I thought that wasn't allowed, but it appear's it's ok.
In this case I would need a long 90 3" with a 2" drain off the side.

Wait... I just realized I can't use a 3" 90 with a 2" drain off the side... that would be a perpendicular vertical to horizontal transition for the lavatory drain... but I assume there's some type of fitting out there that combines a long 90 with a 2" 45 wye... maybe... need to search.

 

[Kickstart]

Regarding wet vent... The reason I didn't think it was allowed is because I saw this on the Bert Polk tips doc:
Helpful Plumbing Hints for Residential Construction by Bert Polk Plumbing Inspector Lincoln County
"3. The toilet vent cannot be used as a drain for fixtures on the second floor of the building."

I'm not sure if that only applies to toilets on the first floor can't have a wet vent from a second floor lavatory, or if it means no toilet on a second floor can have a wet vent.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Regarding wet vent... The reason I didn't think it was allowed is because I saw this on the Bert Polk tips doc:
Helpful Plumbing Hints for Residential Construction by Bert Polk Plumbing Inspector Lincoln County

"3. The toilet vent cannot be used as a drain for fixtures on the second floor of the building."

I'm not sure if that only applies to toilets on the first floor can't have a wet vent from a second floor lavatory, or if it means no toilet on a second floor can have a wet vent.

If ANY fixture on the floors below are using this stack as their vent, you cannot use it as a drain for the fixtures above PERIOD.

 

[Kickstart]

If ANY fixture on the floors below are using this stack as their vent, you cannot use it as a drain for the fixtures above PERIOD.

OK... thanks... so OK if stuff is on the same floor.

Great... I think I've got a couple of options now... I just need to see what fits best. Unfortunately, that new vent from the downstairs lavatory looks like it's going to be in the way now.