Need Insulated toilet tank, worried about low flush toilets

[RCraig]

I haven't been on this forum for several years, since you guys helped me enormously with my mysterious shower leak. In other words, the leak got cured!

New problem. TOILET SWEAT. It is so bad that it ruined the ceiling on the bathroom below. My plumber suggested an insulated toilet tank. Sounds like a good idea. The only thing is, now you have to buy low flush toilets. I read Terry's report, my goodness I had no idea how much I didn't know about toilets. It sounds as if I should get a Toto Ultramax.

My main question is how can I get an insulated tank without ending up with a toilet that doesn't flush well? My plumber told me that the self insulation kits don't work well, as confirmed on this website. So I should probably replace the reliable but very sweaty old American Standard. THanks if anyone has any advice on this. Ruth

 

[Jadnashua]

Most of the older toilets (nearly) emptied the tank each time they were flushed. The water ran long enough so that the incoming water would get quite cold (or at least as cold as it can for the time of year). This is NOT true with most new low-flush toilets. The tank typically only empties about 1/2 or so. This means that the incoming water may have been sitting in the pipes longer and thus got warmer, plus it mixes with the water that was sitting in the tank that may have warmed up to room temp. So, while possible, sweating isn't as big an issue with the newer toilets.

Toilets usually don't sweat that much unless one of two things occur: they are used much more frequently than "normal", or, you have a leak from the flapper valve which causes them to refill periodically even when they are not being used to flush.

For frequent use, an insulated tank may not be enough. For a leak, fix it! In the worst case, you can have a mixing valve installed which mixes some hot with the cold to raise the water going into the tank to a point above the dew point so it won't sweat.

As to which toilet, that's often a matter of personal style choice. An EcoDrake or an Aquia would be on my short list. I've got a Carlyle and a Vespin from Toto in my house. Drakes at my mother's house (one ADA height, one normal).

 

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[RCraig]

Not a leak

It is not a leak, it is just probably as you described, the old American Standard. It sweats enormously, all over the place when it gets warm up here in New Hampshire.

My plumber doesn't want to install a mixing valve, best way to address the problem is that he suggests installing a toilet with an insulated tank. Except for the sweating, the old American Standard is fine. I like anything low tech, so what would be perfect would be something simple that would always do the job perfectly. From Terry's report on toilets, I am really scared of ending up with a toilet that doesn't work well. Like the rest of humanity, I really really don't like the idea of having to use a plunger. Thanks if you have any more thoughts. RUth

 

[Terry]

If the flapper is good, then the tank shouldn't sweat.

Old toilets drain the entire tank, so on refill, you get new fresh cold water.

New toilets only use some water, so only a little water comes back in.

The one-piece design does not come with the insulated tank option.
The two-piece Drake can be ordered with the ST743SD insulated tank.
These work very well.
Any of the Toto toilets with G-Max flush valve are going to work well.

 

[RCraig]

great review on toilets

OK, thanks so much, I will look up the Drake. It really is much more nerve-racking getting a new toilet than I ever imagined. I didn't realize the consequences of the environment-friendly low flush thing, the importance of testing with soybean paste, etc. Gosh. Anyway, your forum made a huge difference in my life due to the genius who helped me fix my shower leak a couple of years ago. Now I am really appreciating your guide to buying a new toilet. I don't think I would go for any of the power or pressure-assisted things, the ones that might startle small children. They might startle my husband in the middle of the night. I would love to keep the old American Standard if I could. I don't think it is the flapper (will check though), as this thing has been sweating for years. I have one of those sweat-catchers with the sponges. The problem with those is balance. If the sweat-catcher isn't just perfectly level, well that is how the bathroom on the floor below got inundated. It isn't easy to get those things perfectly level. Another problem is the fact that people in my house seem to take very very long showers. Old house built in the 70s, pretty good insulation could be another problem. But I will check the flapper. I did do the food-coloring-in-the-tank test a while back, and didn't see any food coloring going into the toilet bowl.

Thanks again< Ruth

 

[Tjbaudio]

While I agree with the new Toto I am curious why no mixing valve recamendation? I put one in with the new Aqua so I dont know what solved the sweeting problem.

 

[RCraig]

why no mixing valve

Not sure, just trying to comply with my plumber. Am thinking perhaps he feels it would be best to first put in a toilet with an insulated tank. Mixing valve might be more complicated because he would have to run a hot water line over to where the toilet is. But perhaps mixing valve would be better. For one thing, my husband has his dander up about replacing the old American Standard. For another, there isn't really all that much space. Thanks for your interest and ideas. Ruth

 

[B2CHR]

Why are you having to comply with your plumber? I thought the homeowner was in charge? All my clients are the boss! To me I would keep the old toilet and install the mixing value. You should have a hot water source very close to the toilet anyway, shower/tub or bath sink. Change out the flapper with new and keep the old one and save a few $$$.

 

[RCraig]

plumber very nice

Well I trust the plumber, and knowing very little about these things, it is to one's advantage to stay on the good side of a plumber at all times. I will ask him again about the mixing valve. I know the toilet only sweats on hot days, really hot. Most of the time it is fine. So I tend not to think about it. Then I come home after not thinking about it for months or years, and it is standing in a puddle because the sweat-catcher hanging on the back of the toilet wasn't perfectly level.

Do you think it would be important to change the flapper, even though the food-coloring-in the-tank test didn't show any leakage into the toilet bowl? Thanks Ruth

 

[Jadnashua]

A toilet as old as yours could be using 5-7 gallons per flush. That will run long enough to purge any water sitting in the pipes and bring in cold water from underground. Then, you have that cold water sitting in the tank, making it cold, and condensing water out of the air.

Modern toilets use at a max of 1.6 gallons, and the newest ones use less. They do not empty the tank, so what little water does refill the tank is often warm already from sitting in the exposed pipes, and then it mixes with some already in the tank so it is rare that you get condensation.

Insulation only slows heat transfer, it doesn't stop it. So, an insulated tank may not keep the tank from sweating.

Depending on what you pay for water and sewer, and to probably solve your condensation problem, a new toilet seems like a good idea. Some locales are also offering a rebate to replace an old water hog with a new eco friendly one.

A permanent fix for any toilet to stop sweating even under the worst conditions is a mixing valve to fill the tank with warm water.

 

[RCraig]

will ask again

I will ask the plumber again about the mixing valve. That would solve several problems if I understand correctly. One is the toilet sweating. Another is the fact that my husband seemed to get a bit hostile when I mentioned replacing the old toilet.

My neighbor has a mixing valve. I think she turns on the warm only in summer. Thanks again for all the information. If I can talk the plumber into the mixing valve, could I keep the old American Standard? Ruth

 

[RCraig]

pressure assist tank

Could anyone give me thoughts about some sort of pressure assist tank (I read about it on the Internet). Apparently there is an inner tank as well as an outer tank. Therefore, the sweat drips into the outer tank rather than on the floor. I didn't want pressure assist because I prefer low tech, but I will consider anything.

Thanks, Ruth

 

[Jadnashua]

I don't think you'd find a retrofit pressure assist system that worked well; in fact, some new toilets with them don't work well. Three things (as I see it) against them: noisey flush - scares little kids!, more complicated, can tend to shread things and leave floaters in the bowl because of the velocity. Another thing is sometimes, the valve can be stiffer to flush than a typical toilet - it depends somewhat on the water pressure in the house and how well it is designed.

For the cost of a plumber to install a mixing valve, you might get a new toilet; just depends on the labor rates as parts arent' that expensive (although copper is REALLY high in comparison to what it once was). It would depend somewhat on how far he has to run the supply and how hidden you want it to be...you may have to tear up some wall then repair it. Installing a new toilet normally wouldn't require any of that.

 

[RCraig]

still somewhat confused

Yeah, I understand the part about the startling flush. I also don't want anything too high-tech because it just means more that can break. It just sounded good that there would be two tanks, and the sweat then wouldn't be able to get out.

It actually isn't a matter of money. I just don't know what the best/easiest overall solution would be. Perhaps getting the hot water pipe that goes over to the toilet would be the best. If I understand you guys, that has the best chance of really working well. Insulated toilet tank might be good, but that means a new toilet and that means environmentally-friendly toilet and that is what is so complicated and I don't know which one would be best.

Even if there were a better toilet sweat catching tray, that would help. The trays I see on the internet are all like the one I have, too shallow, and if they are not perfectly level they are not helping the situation. Ruth in New Hampshire

 

[Furd]

A sweating tank is also indicative of high relative humidity levels in the house. You state that it is worst when someone takes a long hot shower. Do you have a "working" exhaust fan in the bathroom AND a way for fresh air to enter the bathroom when the fan is on?

The exhaust fan needs to be started before the shower and run for a period of time after the shower is off. Remember that you MUST have a means for fresh air to enter or the exhaust fan does nothing but make noise.

If you are adamant on the status quo you could have a stainless steel pan made up that would fit between the tank and the bowl with a drain tube to the bowl. This, of course, would not stop the sweating but it would collect the drips and channel them into the bowl thereby eliminating the problem of emptying the cheapo plastic drip tray.

 

[Redwood]

Furd unlike your side of the country with that nice cool water coming down from Alaska over on the right coast we have the gulf stream coming up from the tropics. We get the 3 h's... Hazy, Hot, & Humid! Humidity in the high 90% range is not uncommon. Not much a bathroom fan is going to do except move humid air unless the poster installs A/C.

Swamp Coolers do not work here.

 

[RCraig]

Stainless steel drip pan

Not a bad idea, the drip tray I have is very weird shaped because of the hoses etc. The main problem with the drip tray, it works ok if it is not too hot and humid, not too much accumulation. But then it goes and overflows on me when I am not thinking about these things. Have bathroom fan, not perhaps sufficiently obsessive about using it. However, it probably couldn't completely overcome the sweat on a hot day given that I have a probably 25 year old toilet. Much appreciate all your thoughts. Planning to reapproach plumber re mixing valve. RUth

 

[RCraig]

tank insulation that won't come off

By the way, does anyone know of a way I could install insulation on the inside of my existing tank (Am Standard) and have a good chance of it staying on. My plumber tells me it usually doesn't stick on for long, and I would prefer not to spend a lot of time insulating the toilet tank and then have it not stick. Thanks, Ruth

 

[Gary Swart]

Ruth, you're running in circles try to avoid the obvious and best solution. Get the Toto Drake and your troubles are over. You don't need a pressure assist, in fact, for the life me I can imagine why anyone would need or want a pressure assist. The Drake will flush almost anything without ever needing a plunger and without the need to flush twice. What more anyone wants from a toilet, I don't know.

 

[RCraig]

Ok, thanks Gary

I was just getting a bit nervous because I was reading other posts about installation problems with the Toto Drake. Don't want to "fix" what ain't really broke.
Really enjoy this forum. Too bad I don't have more plumbing problems. Ruth